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| Nobel Prize Winner was SS Member | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 12 2006, 06:03 AM (280 Views) | |
| George K | Aug 12 2006, 06:03 AM Post #1 |
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Finally
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When I was in college, I remember reading The Tin Drum, by Gunter Grass. Today, Reuters breaks the story that he was a member of the WaffenSS.
Does this history change anyone's impressions? Does the fact that he hid his military service change anyone's opinions about his credibility? I, for one, know several people (no longer living) who were "encouraged" to join the Hitler Youth, and other nefarious organizations - who never spoke of it, who were ashamed. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| John Jacob Jingoism Smith | Aug 12 2006, 06:37 AM Post #2 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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It's a complicated issue, because at what point does a young man with a young man's lack of wisdom and judgement suppose to realize that 'serving your country' (or obeying your leaders) has crossed over into aiding and abetting evil? That said, I am not particularly impressed with his confession so late in life, when he has little to lose anymore. |
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Jingoism You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott | |
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| kentcouncil | Aug 12 2006, 06:49 AM Post #3 |
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Fulla-Carp
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His writing since indicates he does realize this. So many of his contemporaries have tried to deny the complicity of the German people in the atrocities committed by the Nazis, but he hasn't. I'm inclined to cut him some slack. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Luke's Dad | Aug 12 2006, 07:08 AM Post #4 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Actually, at this stage of his life, he is harming and potentially ruining one thing of tremendous value. His legacy. People will go to extreme lengths to protect the way they'll be remembered. To come out like this on his part is very brave. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| John Jacob Jingoism Smith | Aug 12 2006, 07:51 AM Post #5 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Kent, Actually what I meant was young men of enlistment age, not with the benefit of hindsight. How is a young man of army age supposed to determine if a call to arms from his leaders is evil or not, and if he does believe it to be evil, is it his duty to rebel against his leaders? |
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Jingoism You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott | |
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| Phlebas | Aug 12 2006, 07:56 AM Post #6 |
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Bull-Carp
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The opening sentence of one of the greatest chapters of a novel ever written. Grass, like a lot of people, joined groups during deperate times, he later regretted being associated with. (so much for his association with the Social Democratic Party. I wonder how he felt about the SS.
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| jon-nyc | Aug 12 2006, 08:06 AM Post #7 |
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Cheers
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jeez, next thing ya know we'll find out the pope was in the hitler youth organization. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| John D'Oh | Aug 12 2006, 08:09 AM Post #8 |
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MAMIL
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Since of the top of my head there were about 1 million members of the SS, I don't really think this should be an issue. He's clearly not a Nazi sympathiser now, so why make a big deal of it? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Mikhailoh | Aug 12 2006, 08:18 AM Post #9 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I don't get any impression that he 'hid' his past. Many American vets from that era will not speak of their experiences, my father among them. I would guess it wopuld be moreso with German vets, having lost badly and had much of their homeland decimated for it. Can you imagine what it must have been like to serve in Dresden late in the war? Why would one want to dredge that back up? I don't see an issue here. Being silent is not the same as concealment. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| George K | Aug 12 2006, 08:38 AM Post #10 |
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Finally
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Interesting. Yes, the SS had many many member as did the Hitlerjugend. I just found it interesting that Grass chose this time to tell the story. What motivated him? As Mik said, people don't like to talk about it. I had a close relative who was a member of the Hitlerjugend. I found out from his mother, as a matter of idle conversation - I never asked. Bombing? My parents tell me the most frightening thing about the war was the night air raid sirens going off, going to the shelters as they heard the Allied bombers approach, and not knowing what, if anything would be left when they emerged. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Dewey | Aug 12 2006, 09:22 AM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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At the age at which he learns the difference between good and evil, and the consequences of both; which I suggest is substantially younger than eighteen. "Young man" or no, he rightly bears a man's responsibility for a man's actions. That's not the complicated part of the story at all. The truly complicated part is, at what point does forgiveness enter the picture? In what manner and degree? What is justice in this particular instance? I don't agree with people who would relieve someone like this of responsibility for their past actions based merely on their youth and lack of experience. There may certainly be other, legitimate reasons for forgiveness, but that doesn"t include ignoring the reality of the person's actions as nothing more than a youthful indiscretion for which they have no meaningful culpability. I don't know the circumstances or details of his military service, or anything of his postwar existence, so I couldn't answer any of those questions. I'm just thinking out loud about refining the actual issue. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Aug 12 2006, 09:50 AM Post #12 |
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Bull-Carp
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The Waffen SS was Heinrich Himmler's private army- well equipped and well trained. Early on Waffen SS were recruited on the basis of their stereotypical Aryan features and superior athletic abilities. As well they had to demonstrate absolute loyalty to the Nazi ideology. Without having all the details surrounding Grass' recruitment, I would wager that by 1944 he was taken into the SS because his physique either matched the Aryan ideal or he was extremely athletic. As well, by 1944 the Red Army had decimated many of the Waffen SS divisions and it was therefore was desparate for recruits to defend the homeland. In any case by 1944 the German U-boats had lost the battle of Atlantic and most were in dry dock. Soldiers were needed on the front not roaming the oceans or manning the dockyards. It would be interesting to learn to which Waffen SS division he was assigned, what his rank was and what was his training. Many were simply grunt infantrymen others were trades and equipment logistics personnel. Very few had anything to do with concentration and extermination camps. |
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| Nina | Aug 12 2006, 10:04 AM Post #13 |
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Senior Carp
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I don't really get the question. You asked if this affects his "credibility"? He's a novelist. If he writes good novels (which he does) then he's a credible novelist. He's written almost exclusively about World War II, German guilt, and the inhumane nature of war. It sounds like his experiences have helped him write better novels. As to his credibility in other matters, I have no idea. |
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| John Jacob Jingoism Smith | Aug 12 2006, 12:54 PM Post #14 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Nina, Oh there you go again being =logical=. Dewey, Following your logic would you say, then, that if a young man were convinced his country's military actions are immoral, that he should at the minimum refuse his services in the armed forces, if not outright resist his country's efforts? |
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Jingoism You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott | |
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| David Burton | Aug 12 2006, 01:02 PM Post #15 |
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Senior Carp
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Your parents, or someone else's? |
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| Dewey | Aug 12 2006, 01:07 PM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yep. Of course, his convictions had better be strong enough to accept the probable consequences of that decision, too. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| John Jacob Jingoism Smith | Aug 12 2006, 01:12 PM Post #17 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Yes. Of course there are consequences. |
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Jingoism You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott | |
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| John D'Oh | Aug 12 2006, 01:18 PM Post #18 |
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MAMIL
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Snide aside: I imagine that one possible consequence of making the announcement at this point is that his memoirs may sell rather well. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| TomK | Aug 12 2006, 05:35 PM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But you have to admit that if someone hands you an all black uniform with "Death Heads" all over it--you just might get the feeling that you're playing for the wrong team. I think I would. |
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| apple | Aug 12 2006, 05:39 PM Post #20 |
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one of the angels
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i still like The Tin Drum |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| John D'Oh | Aug 12 2006, 05:58 PM Post #21 |
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MAMIL
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Hugo Boss designed that stuff, as Mr. Thumper pointed out to me some time ago. Some people will do just anything for designer clothes. Doesn't anybody else secretly think that Darth Vader is a lot cooler than Luke 'I'll never work in this town again' Skywalker? Yes, I know, there's all that death star nonsense, but to your average spotty teenage boy, black is the new black. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Aug 12 2006, 06:14 PM Post #22 |
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I am the grey one
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The SD had uniforms with Death heads on it. The SS had the twin lightning bolts we have all become familiar with. Towards the end of the war the SS was becoming far less exclusive. I had a friend years ago who served in the SS and he was from Latvia. That is the way it went towards the end as their ranks became more depleted. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Aug 13 2006, 05:44 AM Post #23 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I makes very little difference what team it is when the choice is join up or be shot. One's range of options is limited. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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