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| how to be charming | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 5 2006, 05:36 AM (527 Views) | |
| kenny | Aug 5 2006, 11:43 AM Post #26 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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| DivaDeb | Aug 5 2006, 11:57 AM Post #27 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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okay...I'm out...but maybe apple can accidentally leave the door open when she's in there doing all that self-serving apostate practicing on the poor old organ. I'll just back up with my van and take my own damn pew
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| apple | Aug 5 2006, 11:59 AM Post #28 |
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one of the angels
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they actually might still have some of the old pews for sale Deb.. (goodwill offering) - i'll check |
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| DivaDeb | Aug 5 2006, 12:02 PM Post #29 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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please do! I really have been looking for one! |
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| Dewey | Aug 5 2006, 01:13 PM Post #30 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"apple I just can't imagine all this. It is a church. It is religion. It is about faith and what is in you heart. I just don't understand all this. It sounds like High School." kenny, you really DON'T get around a church often, do you? The backbiting, political intrigue, and pettiness inside the typical church subculture would put the halls of Congress to shame. apple, one mistake to avoid is wasting effort trying to make nice with the whole henhouse, as it were. It will only dilute your efforts, and won't actually achieve your intended end. Every long-established church, and every long-established church sub-group, is a tribal hierarchy. This hierarchy has nothing to do with actual titles and supposed power structure - just as you are a "secret director," the real power behind the position, there is in every case nominal and real power, and often they are not the same people. These subcultures have, in effect, "gatekeepers" and "matriarchs/patriarchs" who must be negotiated. The "gatekeepers' " role applies more to complete newbies, and you've already navigated past them. But you've got to figure out who the real matriarch, or matriarchs, (there will rarely be more than one, and almost never more than two) of this group are - the real power broker(s), the one(s) who the rest rely on to tell them what to think, or who have the social power to validate their thoughts. If the matriarch would change position, it would in surprising speed, result in changing the whole group's position. That's the one, or maybe two, who you have to concentrate on, make nice with, even when you have to grit your teeth to do it, and to get on your side. The rest of the hens will fall like dominoes. It sounds like, in addition to possibly just personality clashes, you're also coming up against the something much tougher to battle, the "Tradition Problem." Change is scary to anyone who is vested in an established system. Whether it's wrong or right, good or bad, people who have been in a familiar environment for very long draw comfort, and to a (sometimes unhealthy) degree, their understanding and sense of self. Any change is bad and disorienting. This isn't a character flaw, it's just human nature, especially in a church family setting, a large part of which is to provided nurture and comfort to the members of its group. Unless I misunderstand your problem, it sounds like your running into the buzzsaw from the hens because you're trying to do new and inovative things. If you have any hope of succeeding - and part of the definition of success is getting the inovations accepted by the hens, and the congregation at large, to accept the change and make it part of their tradition, part of their "self-story." To do that, you might have to first become a bit of a church historian. Learn as much about the history of the church as you can - who were its most beloved past leaders (certainly including clergy, but maybe more importantly, the "matriarchs" and "patriarchs" who shaped the church's self-identity). Learn how the currently established ways of doing things actually came to be - every idea was new at some time; how did the now tried-and-true first become part of the group culture? What I'm getting at is that in order to make your new idea work, what you will likely have to do is re-cast it as actually an "old" idea. You might have to find a way to get those opposing it to understand it as "really nothing new - we did something similar when Pastor Reynolds was here, and Sarah Ingersoll was the choir director, back in the late '50's..." In other words, you have to find a way to make it not something new, but actually just something old that your group - starting with the matriarch(s) - is already familiar and comfortable with. Some of what I just wrote comes from a book I recently read, "Entering the World of the Small Church," by Anthony G. Pappas. It's written as a guide to pastors who would find themselves in a small congregation, but being part of a relatively large church (and being part of a group that is currently "selling" and starting an alternative, informal Sunday evening worship service to a membership who is largely ultra-traditional), I found the advice to be applicable to understanding congregational culture regardless of actual church size. You might want to find a copy of the book (it's only 140 pages long); it may have some advice that's helpful to you. amazon link Summary: Find the matriarch. Get her on your side, with large, frequent doses of honey poured on over time, and largely by reframing your "new" idea as really an "old" idea that's already part of your particular church's self-perception and comfort zone. Good luck!
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| TomK | Aug 5 2006, 01:19 PM Post #31 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm looking for altar for human sacrifice--have any of those for sale?
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| DivaDeb | Aug 5 2006, 01:24 PM Post #32 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Oh too bad Tom, just sold my spare altar in a yard sale. I have a couple extra cauldrons and a cat-o-nine tails if you're in the market. |
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| Dewey | Aug 5 2006, 01:28 PM Post #33 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Oh Deb, don't encourage him... :lol: |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| apple | Aug 6 2006, 01:00 PM Post #34 |
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one of the angels
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unfortunately... i don't have to look far for the matriarch.. she calls me often.. trying to talk me into doing things her way, not because her way is better, but because it is her way. she is sooo persistent, and such a control freak, she gets totally out of hand and will stop at nothing to prove a point. She drives me bats. she is the trunk of the telephone tree, the root of the grapevine and involved in so many organizations...... so.. i must ply her with honey, huh? |
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| Mikhailoh | Aug 6 2006, 01:07 PM Post #35 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Sounds to me like this one is aggressive enough that honey will just get you more 'do it my way's. Maybe the 'why don't you stfu and let us do our music our way?', good ol' scorched earth approach might be more effective in the long run. She sounds to me like one of these people who will simply take advantage of your goodwill and 'honey' and walk all over it, chiding you for your innocence. With those folks you just have to pick up the bone of contention, whack them good upside the head with it and let the chips fall where they may. She'll likely respect you the more for it. Just picture yourself as Gary Cooper. 'There's a new sheriff in town'. But then I grew up in a pool hall. My early political lessons largely consisted of, if harassed by a group, pick the leader and make sure to throw the first punch at him, as hard as you can. If she loses her will to fight the rest will follow. Perhaps the theory applies here as well. It sure did there. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Dewey | Aug 6 2006, 02:45 PM Post #36 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Can the pastor help run interference by getting her too involved in some other ego-boosting venture that she's distractged & doesn't bother you? If it really gets out of hand, he should be able to call her in and tell her bluntly that the pastor is responsible for ultimately deciding the priorities of the music program, and he/she has decided to go in your direction. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| TomK | Aug 6 2006, 02:50 PM Post #37 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Next time she calls just say, "Sorry but I like men, please stop calling me!" |
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| Dewey | Aug 6 2006, 03:04 PM Post #38 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Another creative way to handle a wayward "matriarch"... Mildred, the church gossip, and self-appointed monitor of the church's morals, kept sticking her nose in to other people's business. Several members did not approve of her extra curricular activities, but feared her enough to maintain their silence. She made a mistake, however, when she accused George, a new member, of being an alcoholic after she saw his old pickup parked in front of the town's only bar one afternoon. She emphatically told George and several others that everyone seeing it there would know what he was doing. George, a man of few words, stared at her for a moment and just turned and walked away. He didn't explain, defend, or deny. He said nothing. Later that evening, George quietly parked his pickup in front of Mildred's house .. walked home.... and left it there all night.
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| justme | Aug 6 2006, 03:39 PM Post #39 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I've handled matriarchs before. You need to kill them with kindness wearing all your battle armor. You can never let your defenses down. The kindness will eventually slay them. It's the only way. Unfortunately, after you've done this, you've totally destroyed their life. The power she holds over her church committee is probably the only power she's ever known. Once that's taken away, she's destroyed. Then you really look bad. |
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"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3 | |
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| Dewey | Aug 6 2006, 04:30 PM Post #40 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, no, the goal isn't to kill them or strip them of their influence; it's simply to get them to use their influence in your favor - which you can really only do by figuring out a way to make them think that it's really their idea, not yours. One important thing here is that, if you're really convinced that you should head in "X" direction, don't demand that you get credit for it. I think Reagan was quoted as saying something like that, "there's no end to the good you can accomplish if you don't mind who gets the credit." Same kind of thing here. Can you think of a way that you can spin your new direction as really something old and already familiar, and make the matriarch think it's her idea? |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| kenny | Aug 6 2006, 04:37 PM Post #41 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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| justme | Aug 6 2006, 06:07 PM Post #42 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm sure you're right and that's where I went wrong. |
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"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3 | |
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