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New Degree Offered By Landover Baptist University
Topic Started: Aug 3 2006, 11:02 PM (2,271 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
TomK
Aug 5 2006, 08:35 AM
I'm not buying that Rick is a religious bigot--I don't think he gives a hoot that the people addressed by the satire are Protestants, I don't think he has much misgivings about Luther, Calvin or any of those roudy boys from the 16th Century and I don't think he has anything against their latter day decendants, per se. Rick at times seems to "like" Liberal Protestants. I might even venture to say that Rick's Theology is a mite closer to the Liberal Protestants in some respect than to traditional Catholic Theology.

I think Rick was making fun of Conservatives. Period. And there's nothing wrong with that. These Conservatives happened to be Baptists. I think Rick would be more than happy tp make fun of Conservative Catholics or Conservative Secularists. If there were a site that makes fun of Conservative Catholics--I have no doubt that Rick would flood us with links to it.

Rick's not a bad guy--maybe a bit dazed by the California sun in his political leanings, but nobody's perfect.

Your $100 will be in the mail as well, Tom!
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
No offense, but both of you are Catholics. If one of the protestants here constantly over several years posted articles from websites that made fun of Catholics, you'd have a different take on things. Long before Rick posted this last article his bigotry toward Protestants was as clear as a bell.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Good Lord!! May the Saints in Heaven preserve us!! Given the invective that flies around hear, calling Rick, a sincerely believing Catholic, a religious bigot just seems, well, silly. Apparently you are not a religious bigot only if you believe certain very specific things. Some people here make conservative Protestants look worse than anything on the Landover site.




(P.S. I am Jewish. I charge 200 dollars.)
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
You miss the point, Jeffrey. The Protestants here, myself included, accept the Catholic religion as fellow Christians. Rick however, does not.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rick Zimmer
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Jeffrey
Aug 5 2006, 08:43 AM
Good Lord!! May the Saints in Heaven preserve us!! Given the invective that flies around hear, calling Rick, a sincerely believing Catholic, a religious bigot just seems, well, silly. Apparently you are not a religious bigot only if you believe certain very specific things. Some people here make conservative Protestants look worse than anything on the Landover site.

(P.S. I am Jewish. I charge 200 dollars.)

Well now I know why Mel Gibson said what he did! :wink:

OK, your $200 will also be in the mail by this afternoon!

(Sheesh! This is turning out to be a very expensive thread!)
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
TomK
Aug 5 2006, 11:35 AM
I'm not buying that Rick is a religious bigot--I don't think he gives a hoot that the people addressed by the satire are Protestants, I don't think he has much misgivings about Luther, Calvin or any of those roudy boys from the 16th Century and I don't think he has anything against their latter day decendants, per se.  Rick at times seems to "like" Liberal Protestants. I might even venture to say that Rick's Theology is a mite closer to the Liberal Protestants in some respect than to traditional Catholic Theology.

I think Rick was making fun of Conservatives.  Period.  And there's nothing wrong with that. These Conservatives happened to be Baptists. I think Rick would be more than happy tp make fun of Conservative Catholics or Conservative Secularists.  If there were a site that makes fun of Conservative Catholics--I have no doubt that Rick would flood us with links to it.

Rick's not a bad guy--maybe a bit dazed by the California sun in his political leanings, but nobody's perfect.

(IT--we're a regular Catholic League, aren't we? :D)

I agree. I don't think Rick's a bigot, and I think his original article was posted with humour, rather than hatred. I do think he's crossed the line in the past a couple of times making personal remarks, but let's face it, who here hasn't done that?

Anyway, if God hadn't meant us to laugh at Conservatives, why did he make them so funny?

(I charge $400 by the way)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jeffrey
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Larry- Well, I don't know if your characterization of Rick's views towards non-Catholics is correct. I believe that all Catholics believe that non-apostolic Churches are wayward. Take it up with the Counter-Reformation. Rick seems more ecumenical than many.

For what it is worth, some Muslims think other Muslims are not *really* Muslim (e.g. the Sunni-Shiite-Sufi splits). And some Jews do not recognize the marriages of other Jews if performed by the "wrong" type of Rabbi. In fact, I can't think of a monotheistic religion that is not schismatic in some way.

So, again, your claims that Rick is a religious bigot are just silly.


(Rick - Actually, I charge by the hour. No fixed fee for this one. I will send you the bill. Normal 5 percent discount for repeat business.)
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Rick Zimmer
Aug 4 2006, 11:27 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 4 2006, 11:20 PM
The point of satire is to hold up someone's vices or follies to ridicule. To ridicule is to laugh at derisively. It's hard to get away from the notion that at some point, properly speaking "satire" is to intended be funny, albeit in a mean spirited way.

In literature, satire is seen as needing to have a touch of humor to it; but not necessarily be termed funny as in a joke is funny. Clearly, Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal was not funny as a joke would be, even if it had humor in it.

I think, thumps, you have also missed one part of the purpose of satire. Satire as a literary form also is intended to raise issues in order to seek some sort of corrective action or change. It is not simply to ridicule. There is a purpose to the ridicule.

Without that purpose, it can be simply mean-spirited.

What is the purpose of Landover? To change people's view of what the authors see as a negative influence in this society by an increasiongly powerful political and social base.

One may agree or disagree with the authors' intent. Those who disagree likely see no need for a change and find the satire over the top. Those who agree, likely will see a need for the change and find the satire as making a valid, albeit hyperbolic, point.

But satire must have a purpose other than just to ridicule for it to be true satire.

This is why such things as racial jokes and other similar things are not as acceptable as true satire. The jokes are meant simply to make fun of people based on stereotypes. Satire has a larger purpose.

Satire may be about bringing change, or it could be the voice of the voiceless or the weak -- not intending to bring change but for political relief. It can also be used merely to point out the deficiencies in other's position: Voltaire's Candide does that to Liebnitz. Ronald Knox's Studies in the Literature of Sherlock Holmes is purportedly the first modern satire of literary criticism --- it is not in the least political, nor does it seek any corrective action or change. It is merely to expose the foibles of literary criticism. But, as you point out, it need not be overtly mean spirited, as Knox shows.

If you ever saw the movie Ridicule, you might remember the scene at the end where the two exiled French noblemen are discussing the rude English practice of "humor" against their refined practice of "wit". "Humor" is seen as base since it is a matter of exciting the passionsm whereas "wit" is an intellectual (and therefore "higher") endeavor. Wit involves words, humor does not require words. Either can be used in satire.

it seems at the core, the direct purpose of satire is simply to hold something up to ridicule (lit., to laugh at or to mock, from ridere). So you are right that it need not be a mean spirited form of commentary, but it is meant to show the ridiculousness of a position. Beyond that, it can be employed for specific means such as fomenting change, but it need not be. So, based on the examples of Voltaire and Knox -- both widely acknoweldged as exemplary satirists -- I have to disagree that satire must have a higher purpose than mere criticism of another's position or practice.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
So - if I start reading Nazi websites and posting the funny articles about Jews that I find on them, that's ok?
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Jeffrey
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Larry - That you would compare the two, says something about you, not Rick. Does the Landover site have organized links to murder-groups?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Don't get me wrong - I don't read Nazi websites, nor do I suscribe to their views. But apparently the defining point here is that if I find one that doesn't have any links to murder groups, but just makes fun of Jews, that's ok.

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Rick Zimmer
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ivorythumper
Aug 5 2006, 09:03 AM
Satire may be about bringing change, or it could be the voice of the voiceless or the weak -- not intending to bring change but for political relief. It can also be used merely to point out the deficiencies in other's position: Voltaire's Candide does that to Liebnitz. Ronald Knox's Studies in the Literature of Sherlock Holmes is purportedly the first modern satire of literary criticism --- it is not in the least political, nor does it seek any corrective action or change. It is merely to expose the foibles of literary criticism. But, as you point out, it need not be overtly mean spirited, as Knox shows.

If you ever saw the movie Ridicule, you might remember the scene at the end where the two exiled French noblemen are discussing the rude English practice of "humor" against their refined practice of "wit". "Humor" is seen as base since it is a matter of exciting the passionsm whereas "wit" is an intellectual (and therefore "higher") endeavor. Wit involves words, humor does not require words. Either can be used in satire.

it seems at the core, the direct purpose of satire is simply to hold something up to ridicule (lit., to laugh at or to mock, from ridere). So you are right that it need not be a mean spirited form of commentary, but it is meant to show the ridiculousness of a position. Beyond that, it can be employed for specific means such as fomenting change, but it need not be. So, based on the examples of Voltaire and Knox -- both widely acknoweldged as exemplary satirists -- I have to disagree that satire must have a higher purpose than mere criticism of another's position or practice.

Oh, I would agree with you there, thumps.

I was simply saying that satire must have a purpose other than just ridicule, which is what I thought you had said in your original comment on this. Ridicule is its format, but the ridicule is being used for a purpose.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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John D'Oh
Aug 5 2006, 08:59 AM
TomK
Aug 5 2006, 11:35 AM
I'm not buying that Rick is a religious bigot--I don't think he gives a hoot that the people addressed by the satire are Protestants, I don't think he has much misgivings about Luther, Calvin or any of those roudy boys from the 16th Century and I don't think he has anything against their latter day decendants, per se.  Rick at times seems to "like" Liberal Protestants. I might even venture to say that Rick's Theology is a mite closer to the Liberal Protestants in some respect than to traditional Catholic Theology.

I think Rick was making fun of Conservatives.  Period.  And there's nothing wrong with that. These Conservatives happened to be Baptists. I think Rick would be more than happy tp make fun of Conservative Catholics or Conservative Secularists.  If there were a site that makes fun of Conservative Catholics--I have no doubt that Rick would flood us with links to it.

Rick's not a bad guy--maybe a bit dazed by the California sun in his political leanings, but nobody's perfect.

(IT--we're a regular Catholic League, aren't we? :D)

I agree. I don't think Rick's a bigot, and I think his original article was posted with humour, rather than hatred. I do think he's crossed the line in the past a couple of times making personal remarks, but let's face it, who here hasn't done that?

Anyway, if God hadn't meant us to laugh at Conservatives, why did he make them so funny?

(I charge $400 by the way)

Awwww.....c'mon John.

You know we agreed to a $4.00 bottle of scotch! :D
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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Jeffrey
Aug 5 2006, 09:02 AM
Larry- Well, I don't know if your characterization of Rick's views towards non-Catholics is correct. I believe that all Catholics believe that non-apostolic Churches are wayward. Take it up with the Counter-Reformation. Rick seems more ecumenical than many.

For what it is worth, some Muslims think other Muslims are not *really* Muslim (e.g. the Sunni-Shiite-Sufi splits). And some Jews do not recognize the marriages of other Jews if performed by the "wrong" type of Rabbi. In fact, I can't think of a monotheistic religion that is not schismatic in some way.

So, again, your claims that Rick is a religious bigot are just silly.


(Rick - Actually, I charge by the hour. No fixed fee for this one. I will send you the bill. Normal 5 percent discount for repeat business.)

OK. I'll just wait for the bill, Jeffrey! Please use fewer words! :D

(I can hardly wait for Quirt to chime in! God only knows what sort of bill I'll get from an attorney! :rolleyes: )
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Great, Rick. Now let's move on to papal infallibility. :lol:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
How do I get in on this gravy train?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rick Zimmer
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ivorythumper
Aug 5 2006, 09:34 AM
Great, Rick. Now let's move on to papal infallibility.  :lol:

thumps, I suspect we would have little disagreement on papal infallibility. It is how much weight must be given to the non-infallible statements where we would disagree. :wink:
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Larry
Aug 5 2006, 07:40 AM
No offense, but both of you are Catholics. If one of the protestants here constantly over several years posted articles from websites that made fun of Catholics, you'd have a different take on things. Long before Rick posted this last article his bigotry toward Protestants was as clear as a bell.

[Devil's Advocate]
C'mon, Larry, you can't expect me to believe that Catholics would get pissed if people posted Protestant-related material on here! Why, it's not meant to antagonize Catholics at all!

I mean c'mon, what's a few articles? What if they just want to share some ideas? I mean, if some of the Protestants just wanted to post some things about why they believe what they believe, and why they think Catholic beliefs are wrong? What's the harm in that, we're just exchanging ideas. Catholics must sure be intolerant of other viewpoints!

[/Devil's Advocate]

I think this is a very good point you brought up, Larry.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Aug 5 2006, 11:49 AM
You miss the point, Jeffrey. The Protestants here, myself included, accept the Catholic religion as fellow Christians. Rick however, does not.

While you and most Prostants consider Catholics lots and lots of Protestant's don't.

Protestant Web Links

FYI: Mel Gibson belongs to a "sect" of Catholicism that believes that Protestant's aren't Catholic--but they are marginal at best and may even be heretical.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
TomK
Aug 5 2006, 08:56 AM
Larry
Aug 5 2006, 11:49 AM
You miss the point, Jeffrey. The Protestants here, myself included, accept the Catholic religion as fellow Christians. Rick however, does not.

While you and most Prostants consider Catholics lots and lots of Protestant's don't.

Protastant Web Links

FYI: Mel Gibson belongs to a "sect" of Catholicism that believes that Protestant's aren't Catholic--but they are marginal at best and may even be heretical.

I think you meant "Protestants aren't Christian"?

I don't think it makes any difference what any of us think of the condition of another person's soul. It only matters what God thinks. I enjoy discussion/argument (in the classical sense, not the antagonistic sense) of theology and doctrine with anyone who is interested in that sort of thing, but I won't question your salvation.
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Jeffrey
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Rick: "$4.00 bottle of scotch!"

Where can you get a good bottle of scotch for 4 dollars? A decent Highland is 60-80.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Rick Zimmer
Aug 5 2006, 12:30 PM

Awwww.....c'mon John.

You know we agreed to a $4.00 bottle of scotch!  :D

Now that was bigoted. That's the last time I'm ever going to be nice to a cheapskate liberal.

:)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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Jeffrey
Aug 5 2006, 10:27 AM
Rick: "$4.00 bottle of scotch!"

Where can you get a good bottle of scotch for 4 dollars?  A decent Highland is 60-80.

Who said anything about a "good" bottle of scotch!?

There's this guy who sells it at the offramp of a freeway here. Right on the label it says "$4.00 Bottle of Scotch"

$60-$80 a bottle? C'mon, Jeffrey! We're talking John D'oh here! :D
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Rick Zimmer
Aug 5 2006, 01:31 PM
Jeffrey
Aug 5 2006, 10:27 AM
Rick: "$4.00 bottle of scotch!"

Where can you get a good bottle of scotch for 4 dollars?  A decent Highland is 60-80.

Who said anything about a "good" bottle of scotch!?

There's this guy who sells it at the offramp of a freeway here. Right on the label is says "$4.00 Bottle of Scotch"

$60-$80 a bottle? C'mon, Jeffrey! We're talking John D'oh here! :D

I happen to have very high standards, offset by very wide tolerances.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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John D'Oh
Aug 5 2006, 10:30 AM
Rick Zimmer
Aug 5 2006, 12:30 PM

Awwww.....c'mon John.

You know we agreed to a $4.00 bottle of scotch!   :D

Now that was bigoted. That's the last time I'm ever going to be nice to a cheapskate liberal.

:)

Just thinking of you, John. I just don't want you to get dependent on handouts.

If I did that, you might end up on a roof top in New Orleans during a hurricane and there are those here who would let you die.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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