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| New Degree Offered By Landover Baptist University | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 3 2006, 11:02 PM (2,272 Views) | |
| Dewey | Aug 4 2006, 08:22 PM Post #101 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"As long as we know that there's no vitriol behind it, there's no hidden disdain, if it's just a joke, then it's funny." That's an excellent yardstick. I suggest that the original post in this thread comes up short when measured against it. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Daniel\ | Aug 4 2006, 08:28 PM Post #102 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I was just joking too. Nice to meet you, Kenny. |
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| kenny | Aug 4 2006, 09:12 PM Post #103 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You too, Daniel.
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| kenny | Aug 4 2006, 09:16 PM Post #104 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I suggest the reader's feelings about he writer are also an important factor. It takes two for a joke to be taken the "wrong" way. |
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| Daniel\ | Aug 4 2006, 09:36 PM Post #105 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Oh now, I am confused. I reread the posts and found the part where Rick talks about "good conservative Catholics". See, I thought Rick's political philosophy was liberalism based on his posts on Iraq. It has been suggested that Rick is biased against Protestants. But now I can't remember if the good conservative Catholics are supposed to be offended or not supposed to be- I give up!
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 4 2006, 09:51 PM Post #106 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Ahhh.... you've stumbled across the Karl Rove side of me, Daniel!
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| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Daniel\ | Aug 4 2006, 09:57 PM Post #107 |
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Fulla-Carp
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But do you really think that was funny? Karl wouldn't!
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| ivorythumper | Aug 4 2006, 10:10 PM Post #108 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The key word is conservative Catholic, which Rick has never claimed to be, and I have never noticed him to be.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 4 2006, 10:12 PM Post #109 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I considered it biting, blunt and stinging social satire. A valid literary form, which may or may not be funny. Do you think satire has to be funny? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 4 2006, 10:15 PM Post #110 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I've always considered myself to be a traditionally progressive Catholic. Or maybe a progressively traditional Catholic. :rolleyes: |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| ivorythumper | Aug 4 2006, 10:20 PM Post #111 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The point of satire is to hold up someone's vices or follies to ridicule. To ridicule is to laugh at derisively. It's hard to get away from the notion that at some point, properly speaking "satire" is to intended be funny, albeit in a mean spirited way. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Aug 4 2006, 10:22 PM Post #112 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I see by the studious avoidance of the word "conservative" that you agree with me.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 4 2006, 10:27 PM Post #113 |
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Fulla-Carp
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In literature, satire is seen as needing to have a touch of humor to it; but not necessarily be termed funny as in a joke is funny. Clearly, Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal was not funny as a joke would be, even if it had humor in it. I think, thumps, you have also missed one part of the purpose of satire. Satire as a literary form also is intended to raise issues in order to seek some sort of corrective action or change. It is not simply to ridicule. There is a purpose to the ridicule. Without that purpose, it can be simply mean-spirited. What is the purpose of Landover? To change people's view of what the authors see as a negative influence in this society by an increasiongly powerful political and social base. One may agree or disagree with the authors' intent. Those who disagree likely see no need for a change and find the satire over the top. Those who agree, likely will see a need for the change and find the satire as making a valid, albeit hyperbolic, point. But satire must have a purpose other than just to ridicule for it to be true satire. This is why such things as racial jokes and other similar things are not as acceptable as true satire. The jokes are meant simply to make fun of people based on stereotypes. Satire has a larger purpose. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 4 2006, 10:32 PM Post #114 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Now thumps, let's not jump to any rash conclusions here. As the Church progresses in the development of its theology, there are things I think should be conserved.
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| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Daniel\ | Aug 4 2006, 10:51 PM Post #115 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Well Rick, satire to me is something with a political context and irreverant. I wasn't sure so I looked for the satire entry on wikipedia: Satire is a literary technique of writing or art which exposes the follies of its subject (for example, individuals, organizations, or states) to ridicule, often as an intended means of provoking or preventing change. There are two fundamental types of satire: Horatian satire, which is gentle and urbane; and Juvenalian satire, which is biting, bitter invective. The burlesque form of satire can also be segregated into two distinct categories: High burlesque, or taking subject matter which is crude in nature and treating it in a lofty style, or low burlesque, taking subject matter traditionally dealt with in an epic or poetic fashion and degrading it. I didn't think it was satire and according to these definitions, it wasn't gentle or urbane, it didn't take crude subject matter and treat it in a lofty style, and it didn't take the material of epic or poetry and degrade it. I don't think satire is the best description. I think it was just humor. I might have thought it was funny if it had a punchline. |
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 4 2006, 11:07 PM Post #116 |
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Fulla-Carp
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But you missed one of the types of satire, Daniel -- the Juvenalian, which is the category under which I would place all of Landover's stuff. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| OperaTenor | Aug 4 2006, 11:21 PM Post #117 |
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Pisa-Carp
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We sure do some totally subjective selective nitpicking around here...![]() It seems to be okay for liberals to be the target of anything from derision to threats of murder and violence, but woe be unto him who starts taking potshots at any conservative sacred cows. |
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| Daniel\ | Aug 5 2006, 12:02 AM Post #118 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I don't think it fits. I don't think it is a satire because it does not expose stereotypes- it creates them. And what is the point? What is the higher purpose of denegrating Baptists? To show that their social and cultural norms are inferior? I could write something like this about African Americans or Jews and it would rightly be seen as thoughtless humor in poor taste. Or are we supposed to fill in the blanks about the Christian right and the political situation we are familiar with? I don't think the best way to make a political statement is to disparage any religious group. Maybe that's just me. ![]() |
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| John D'Oh | Aug 5 2006, 01:39 AM Post #119 |
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MAMIL
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Satire isn't necessarily mean-spirited. 'This is Spinal Tap' is hardly mean-spirited, but I would describe it as satire. Programmes such as The Colbert Report may appear slightly mean-spirited to Washington and Fox News journalists, but you know, for some reason I can't really bring myself to care too much about their finer feelings. In case anybody hasn't guessed, I love satire. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| lb1 | Aug 5 2006, 03:53 AM Post #120 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Well Captain Fred, liberals make themself such easy targets, and that bright color makes them stand out. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Jolly | Aug 5 2006, 06:32 AM Post #121 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Yep. Some of the meaning of any message is found in the messenger that delivers it. Larry, Dewey, Deb, (none of which are Fundamentalists, at least as Rick views them) or myself (which do be one) could have delivered much the same schtick, and been pretty funny. And I'm not picking on Rick. I'd say the same things if the piece had been posted up by Steve, kenny or Jeffery. There is a great difference between laughing with, and laughing at.. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Larry | Aug 5 2006, 07:10 AM Post #122 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Surely I'm not the only one to notice - Rick's comment of
proves the charge that he is a religious bigot is true. It seems to Rick, the only religion of any consequence is Catholic. Well, the article wasn't making fun of conservative Catholics, was it - it was making fun of Baptists, a protestant denomination. Was his comment meant to mean he had also offended the Catholics who don't agree with him politically? Nah - his comment was an attempt to make it appear he had answered the charge that he is a religious bigot without actually addressing it, confusing the issue in hopes it would go away. I'll give him credit however, that he possibly doesn't even realize this himself - most bigots justify their bigotry to themselves and don't see themselves as bigots. The fact remains however, that this is not the first time Rick has posted an article from Landover's website making fun of Baptists. He has posted at least a dozen over the years. Obviously Rick spends a lot of time reading this website. Obviously, he enjoys reading things that makes fun of Protestants. If someone were to regularly post articles he found humorous from Killthenigger.com, pretty soon it should be obvious that this person was a racist. Likewise, anyone who regularly reads websites making fun of Protestants - particularly someone who has a several year long history of showing he views Catholicism as superior to all other religions to the point that it is obvious that he worships his religion instead of the God his religion is built on - is obviously bigotted toward Protestants. This is one of the reasons I give the man such a hard time. Politics and world affairs is one - he hasn't a clue. Religion is the other reason. I saw Rick's religious bigotry years ago. He has done nothing but reaffirm his bigotry from day one. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | Aug 5 2006, 07:30 AM Post #123 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I don't think that quote supports your contention that Rick is a religious bigot. In fact, my own reply to him was to backhandedly agree that he has posted things that a conservative Catholic (moi) would find objectionable -- at least on theological grounds. He also does tend at times to take a derisive (note that word) view of the Vatican, and occasionally spoofs or finds humor in others spoofing the Catholic Church. You know well that I don't agree with Rick about a lot of political and theological matters, but I think you are conflating rellgious bigotry with a general sense of impiety (and I would bet that Rick might find the classic notion of "piety" or being a "pious Christian" or a "pious Catholic" to be quaint at best and supercilious at worst). (How's that for coming to your defense, Rick? )
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| TomK | Aug 5 2006, 07:35 AM Post #124 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm not buying that Rick is a religious bigot--I don't think he gives a hoot that the people addressed by the satire are Protestants, I don't think he has much misgivings about Luther, Calvin or any of those roudy boys from the 16th Century and I don't think he has anything against their latter day decendants, per se. Rick at times seems to "like" Liberal Protestants. I might even venture to say that Rick's Theology is a mite closer to the Liberal Protestants in some respect than to traditional Catholic Theology. I think Rick was making fun of Conservatives. Period. And there's nothing wrong with that. These Conservatives happened to be Baptists. I think Rick would be more than happy tp make fun of Conservative Catholics or Conservative Secularists. If there were a site that makes fun of Conservative Catholics--I have no doubt that Rick would flood us with links to it. Rick's not a bad guy--maybe a bit dazed by the California sun in his political leanings, but nobody's perfect. (IT--we're a regular Catholic League, aren't we? :D) |
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| Rick Zimmer | Aug 5 2006, 07:36 AM Post #125 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Thanks, thumps. As promised, the $100 will be in the mail by this afternoon.
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| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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