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prejudices
Topic Started: Aug 1 2006, 12:52 PM (444 Views)
justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
My brother-in-law, who is a wonderful person, was raised in downtown Baltimore. He grew up with a father who hated black people. My brother-in-law, knew in his heart his father was wrong but still loved his father anyway. My brother-in-law, "Patrick" grew up playing football in an inner city high school and had many black friends. His father eventually died and never again was any thing negative said about black people at their house until last summer.

Last summer "Patrick's" sister was brutally murdered in front of her 8 year old daughter (stabbed to death) by a black man "Patrick's" sister was dating. When Patrick's sister brought the black man home to meet the family, the family was a little shocked but dealt with it. They grew to be fond of the guy.

Until he murdered her.

Now, we all know that the guy didn't murder her because he was black. That he murdered her because he was a creep.

But, now Patrick hates black people. He has great anger. This seemingly "macho" guy will just break down in tears and sob like a baby when he thinks about his sister. He and she shared season tickets to the Ravens (she was a big Raven's fan) and now he can't go to a football game and enjoy it.

This is a true story.

What do you do? Do you try and talk "Patrick" out of hating black people? Do you leave him alone and let him grieve, knowing that innately he's a good man and knows hating black people won't bring his little sister back? Do you despise him for being a bigot?

I don't know.

The reason I bring this up is because I believe that good people can be very stupid for some very profound reasons.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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The 89th Key
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Peggy, first of all, thanks for sharing. What a touchy situation. What I would do is not do anything. Sorta.

I wouldn't actively bring anything up, and might even let some racist comments slip by if Patrick says them. But every now and then I might make a comment saying "Well, that's not really true" or "Black people aren't bad" or other anti-racist comments to try and keep the balance there.

Ultimately it's his life and his point of view. As long as he doesn't take action on his views or impose them on people around him, I would just let him be. I couldn't imagine the anger and hatred I would have for someone who murdered a sibling of mine. I can't predict where that hatred or anger might eventually lead to.

Sad story indeed, but as I said before...I wouldn't really do anything unless a specific racist comment or action he made was significant enough for me to jump in and intercede.
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Thanks, 89th, for your input. But, I really wasn't asking for advice. I was simply trying to make a point.

The point being, we don't always know what's going on with the other guy. And, therefore, we should have IMHO compassion for people who are disillusioned and prejudiced.

added edit: I'm not saying it's okay to be prejudice. I'm just saying we shouldn't be in such a rush to condemn without ever knowing the full story.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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apple
one of the angels
personally i would totally avoid the subject.. If he does bring it up.. talk about his grief, his sister.. That is probably what he must come to terms with. It's only been a year.. A sibling is tough to lose.

perhaps in time he'll change
it behooves me to behold
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The 89th Key
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justme
Aug 1 2006, 05:05 PM
Thanks, 89th, for your input. But, I really wasn't asking for advice. I was simply trying to make a point.

The point being, we don't always know what's going on with the other guy. And, therefore, we should have IMHO compassion for people who are disillusioned and prejudiced.

added edit: I'm not saying it's okay to be prejudice. I'm just saying we shouldn't condemn without ever knowing the full story.

Oh ok, I saw your questions near the end but didn't realize they were rhetorical. I guess my post still applies - that I really dont know how I would react or where my anger might evolve to if someone killed a sibling. Basically, you're right - as easy as it is to condemn a racist or some other form of bigotry, we must use caution as there is a myriad of possible situations out there.
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ny1911
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Senior Carp
Is it true hate? If a black man he did not know was hanging on the edge of a bridge and was about to slip, would he help him or let him fall?

When there is a strong association with a traumatic event, our inate profiling gets saturated...that's normal and isn't hate, though it may appear that way.


So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Several years back, I was very badly wronged - all but destroyed, professionally and personally; many of you have heard some of the repercussions of all that in the past - by several people, including a client who was Asian Indian.

In my head, I know that "all" Asian Indians aren't the same as the one who nearly killed me. In fact, I had had another Asian Indian client just before this one on another project, and while he often frustrated me because he wouldn't listen to my advice (which ended up causing him, and me, lots of hassles), to this day I know he is a good, ethical, and gentle man, a person for whom I have tremendous respect and personal good will toward. So I know that all Indians aren't like the one who caused me such pain (the one who fits, we might as well confront it, the negative stereotype of doing business with Asian Indians to a "T") I know it, and I'm a man of above-average intelligence and, I think, general goodwill toward my fellow humanity.

But with all that, just based on my personal trauma, I still fight a deep-rooted suspicion against Asian Indians. On rare occasions, I'll catch myself making a negative comment about Asian Indians' trustworthiness. I will not do business with Asian Indians to this day - even the good former client called me a while back, and I declined the job, as doing the project would just bring back such awful memories caused by the other person.

I'm ashamed of that. Intellectually, and in my heart, I know that stereotypes are ugly and hurtful, and wrong. I continue to fight against that in my own day to day life. But I'd be lying if I denied that that prejudice wasn't still there.

Here's the reason I'm sharing this distasteful part of my life. Justme, I think there's a really important parallel between my story and your brother in law's. In both cases, deep down, I don't think it's really antipathy against the people themselves. It's just that for the person badly hurt, dealing with the group forces us/them to deal with that pain, and hurt all over again. And it doesn't just cause pain, it makes one angry at the "other" for "forcing" us/them to have to relive the hell. It isn't so much hatred, as it is unreleased hurt.

That's why it's so important to forgive people, even people you don't think deserve to be forgiven. If we don't, we end up with this residual hatred, which is just a different manifestation of the other initial, and very real, pain. That's why I disagree with the idea that alcohol is a "truth serum." Words said in moments of weakness, whether caused by alcohol or otherwise, aren't necessarily what the person really believes, but they can be a cover for something else that's gnawing at them - the one being lashed out at is just an alternative target to lob the anger at. Does that make sense?

Personally, I'm working at letting my own anger over those tragic events go. And I've been successful at the vast majority of it. But I still have a little bit to go - and even with that little bit remaining, I know that I can, when no one else is within earshot, occasionally hear myself say something that I most certainly don't really believe, and which pains me as soon as I hear my mouth say it.

Maybe that's why I'm willing to accept Gibson's apology.

Be patient with your brother in law. Time will help, but honestly, without some other counseling, whether from a trained pastor, counselor, psychologist, etc., some of that pain may never go away. But the fact remains, you know that your brother in law is a good man, and that deep down, his own life is a testimony that he doesn't really believe the words that he may say. Love him, understand him, and try to help him overcome it. Like Cindy Sheehan hasn't let her son go, causing great turmoil in her life, your brother in law hasn't totally let his sister go yet. That's what those ugly words really mean.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
ny1911
Aug 1 2006, 05:15 PM
Is it true hate? If a black man he did not know was hanging on the edge of a bridge and was about to slip, would he help him or let him fall?

He'd save him, gladly.

And, that's my point. He's been sent over the edge. Nobody who truly knows him would ever think of him as a bigot. But! he would definitely appear to be so by some of the things he says, if he were to say it in the wrong company.

This really did happen last summer. It's just going to court now. The murder seemed to create the effect that his dad was right all along. Because when she first brought the guy home everyone was murmuring "good thing Dad's not here" " he'd have a fit".

I thought of this because of what's going on with Mel Gibson. I think something sent Mel over the edge. A bottle of Tequila in the car of a recovering alcoholic? I don't think he was joyriding. I think something happened. Of course, we'll never know.

Or maybe he really is just an a##hole. :shrug:

But I don't think so.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Peggy, that last line reminded me of the old Cosby bit:

"Smoking marijuana allows me to express my true personality!"

"Yes, but what if you're an a$$hole?"

^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Aug 1 2006, 05:27 PM
Peggy, that last line reminded me of the old Cosby bit:

"Smoking marijuana allows me to express my true personality!"

"Yes, but what if you're an a$$hole?"

^_^

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

FWIW, my brother-in-law and his entire family are in counseling. They'll be fine. But they are going through their own special hell.

On the upside they just had their first grandchild. :smile: The circle of life~ :wub:
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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John Jacob Jingoism Smith
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Middle Aged Carp
Having had much more experience dealing with alcoholics than I would really care to, I see no reason to assume that a lapse back into drink on Gibson's part was caused by something 'pushing him over the edge'. I have seen many alcoholics lapse many times. There was never any reason for it other than they were addicted, still ensconced in their own unrealistic thinking, and not yet ready to make a really serious commitment to stay sober. Most of them were not so much committed to their own sobriety as they were making a show of giving into pressure from others to quit. I suspect it was probably the same thing for Mel.

Jingoism

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
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BeeLady
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Middle Aged Carp
justme, it would seem to me that it has only been a very short time for your BIL to deal with this, just a year.

I know that I, myself, would take much longer to come to grips with such a horrific event. For now, I would chalk it up to lashing out and trying to find blame for something that is inexplicable.

As time goes by, with help from therapy and family, he will see that it was the individual person that did this horrible thing.

I wish you and your family all the best during this heart wrenching time.
"My wheel shall sing responsive to my tread,
And I will spin so fine, so strong a thread
Fate shall not cut it, nor Time's forces break"
"Distaff and Spindle: Sonnets by Mary Ashley Townsend" 1895
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Very sorry to hear this.

I'll tell you my experience.
FWIW my brother was murdered in prison by the Mexican Mafia a long time ago.
I got over it.

I don't hold it against Mexicans.
My partner Jose is of Mexican descent.

Eventually Patrick will figure it out.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
My God Kenny...I'm sorry. Sorry too, Peggy, for what your family has been through. Truly tragic.
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Aug 1 2006, 09:41 PM
Very sorry to hear this.

I'll tell you my experience.
FWIW my brother was murdered in prison by the Mexican Mafia a long time ago.
I got over it.

I don't hold it against Mexicans.
My partner Jose is of Mexican descent.

Eventually Patrick will figure it out.

wow, Kenny.

I'm sorry.

Thank you, everyone for your kind thoughts. I agree with much of the above. I'm not worried about "Patrick". There's an awful lot of love going around in my family.

Jingo, who knows, you may be right about Mel~ :shrug:
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Christopher T
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Junior Carp
Similar story:

My maternal great grandfather was murdered by a black man. My grandmother makes comments today like, "He's black, BUT he's a nice guy..."

Again, along the lines of all your stories, if it came down to it, I know she'd pull a black man from a ledge to save his life if he were about to fall.

My maternal grandfather was the head of the NYPD DEA in Harlem during the race riot periods. He also makes comments like she does, and yet he also knows that all black people aren't bad.

When a person is directly afflicted by a person of a particular race/religion, they will often hold some sort of prejudice towards that group. Or when a person is exposed to the negative side of a particular group, ie: drug dealers and gangs of black people, they will probably also be prejudice to that group.

It takes a good person to be able to realize that not every person of that particular race/religion is going to be the same as the next.

I think we all have certain prejudices that most likely stem from (a) negative experience(s) with whoever we are prejudice against.

If it doesn't affect our ability to give everyone a chance on an individual basis, then I don't think it's hate.
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big al
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Bull-Carp
Not all our thoughts are subject to control of the rational part of our mind. I believe that some prejudices fall into that category. They are not fundamentally different from what we refer to as phobias. They represent fear, anger, hatred, or other emotions that float up from some part of the mind. I do not believe that we can successfully suppress such feelings. We simply have to deal with them to the best of our abilities. If they debilitate normal life, we may seek outside help. I don't regard the feelings themselves as right or wrong, they simply are what they are, another set of circuits in the brain that operate in parallel with logic and reason, not under their control. Events and experiences can rewire those circuits in ways that are difficult or impossible to undo.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Hate is not an emotion, it is a passion. Passions are emotionally driven, and to better understand a passion, we need to look at the emotion(s) behind it.

We operate on four basic emotions, or feelings. Everything devolves to happiness, fear, sadness, and/or anger. To know which of these feelings is driving his hate is to perhaps better understand it.

While it's impossible to effect change externally, if, given the opportunity you can speak candidly with him about it, you can perhaps help him understand what's behind the hate. The most important thing is for him to be in integrity with himself about his feelings and biases. Then, he can determine his own behavior through understanding what he's feeling, and what he gets out of it.

And by no means sit in judgement about his feelings. Let him be the judge.


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