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Pataki Press Conference
Topic Started: Aug 1 2006, 10:53 AM (267 Views)
ny1911
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Senior Carp
George Pataki was just at my building holding a press conference. He announced that NY is leading the way in flex fuel development and plug in hybrids. Specifically:

1. NY will produce 50million gallons of ethanol from a number of plants coming online, completely from NY products. I wonder if he meant barrels instead of gallons.

2. The nation's first alternative fuel vehicle research center has been announced for Malta, NY at the Saratoga Technology + Energy Park

3. 5500 state vehicles currently run on flex or alternative fuels.

4. It is now illegal in NY state for gas companies to prevent stations from selling biodiesel, CNG or other "alternative" options.

Ya' heard it hear first.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
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The 89th Key
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TNCR - news doesn't break faster, anywhere.

Thanks NY!
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George K
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Finally
Biofuels. An intersting subject that I know little about, however, that's never stopped me from commenting (see the Castro thread!).

One of my partners and I were talking about this the other day, and he commented that biofuels in the US are not energy neutral, and not much more economic than regular gasoline. The energy cost of growing the corn, etc to make the ethanol adds to the cost of the ethanol and probably drops mileage to a small degree. Corn is also not a very efficient energy producer.

He pointed to Brazil which has a huge biofuel industry, based on sugar beet. That's a whole 'nother animal, according to him. Much more energy rich, and easier to grow. He suggested we start importing from Brazil.
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The 89th Key
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George, I did my "senior thesis" (if you call it that) for my business degree on biodiesel.

The bottom line is this - biodiesel is created from soy, etc...and can only run in certain engines right now. It has many advantages, including better emissions and is renewable. The only problem is many vehicles aren't ready for it yet. VW Jettas and a few other cars can handle the diesel fuel...

I would suggest the commercial market (trucks, boats, etc) that run off diesel to use biodiesel because it's better than normal diesel, better emissions, better renewability, and is even better for the engine.

Of course, there are other biofuels out there...
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
George K
Aug 1 2006, 12:10 PM
He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

Please tell us that was a joke. :blink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:16 AM
George K
Aug 1 2006, 12:10 PM
He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

Please tell us that was a joke. :blink:

You're welcome to import sugar beet from Alberta to supplement the oil and natural gas we already export to the US.
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Nina
Senior Carp
Yep, from what little I know about biofuels, there are some sources that are more efficient than others. Corn is less efficient than sugar beet. Someone more proficient in organic chem than me could undoubtedly explain why.

But biofuels aren't energy neutral--although they are renewable. Some sources are better than others in terms of the energy/pollution/pesticides required to grow and harvest the crop.

Brazil is a real trend-setter here. I think something like half of the new cars sold in Brazil last year were flex fuel/biofuel.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 12:39 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:16 AM
George K
Aug 1 2006, 12:10 PM
He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

Please tell us that was a joke. :blink:

You're welcome to import sugar beet from Alberta to supplement the oil and natural gas we already export to the US.

I'm sure that would work for you. But it makes no sense to go from one energy dependent import economy to another, given the the US has adequate resources to do it themselves and be self sufficient.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ny1911
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ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:51 AM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 12:39 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:16 AM
George K
Aug 1 2006, 12:10 PM
He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

Please tell us that was a joke. :blink:

You're welcome to import sugar beet from Alberta to supplement the oil and natural gas we already export to the US.

I'm sure that would work for you. But it makes no sense to go from one energy dependent import economy to another, given the the US has adequate resources to do it themselves and be self sufficient.

I actually just had a conversation with a Ph.D. on critical resource management. He felt that energy independence was a bad pursuit, and we should focus on stable sources of environmentally friendly energy. Whoever can produce that most efficiently should become the primary supplier(s).

Interestingly, he noted that the primary problem we are facing now w.r.t. petroleum is not where *we* get petroleum, rather it is where everyone else gets their petroleum. Our sources are relatively stable (Canada, US, Mexico, Argentina and Saudi Arabia were the ones he mentioned).
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
George K
Aug 1 2006, 02:10 PM
One of my partners and I were talking about this the other day, and he commented that biofuels in the US are not energy neutral, and not much more economic than regular gasoline. The energy cost of growing the corn, etc to make the ethanol adds to the cost of the ethanol and probably drops mileage to a small degree. Corn is also not a very efficient energy producer.

He pointed to Brazil which has a huge biofuel industry, based on sugar beet. That's a whole 'nother animal, according to him. Much more energy rich, and easier to grow. He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

A few points:

1) The energy balance for ethanol from corn is improving. According to the Department of Agriculture, in 2001 every BTU consumed in ethanol production from corn generated 67 percent more energy (including the coproducts), and since then production has become more efficient. Remember, currently the energy balance for gasoline is negative: making a gallon of gasoline consumes 23 percent more energy than it contains. (Biodiesel, by the way, has an even better energy balance than ethanol.)

2) Brazil derives its ethanol from sugarcane, not sugar beets.

3) Switchgrass could provide twice as much ethanol per acre as corn, and it grows much more easily; once cellulose reduction technology is perfected, it will probably be the preferred source of ethanol.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
ny1911
Aug 1 2006, 02:25 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:51 AM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 12:39 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:16 AM
George K
Aug 1 2006, 12:10 PM
He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

Please tell us that was a joke. :blink:

You're welcome to import sugar beet from Alberta to supplement the oil and natural gas we already export to the US.

I'm sure that would work for you. But it makes no sense to go from one energy dependent import economy to another, given the the US has adequate resources to do it themselves and be self sufficient.

I actually just had a conversation with a Ph.D. on critical resource management. He felt that energy independence was a bad pursuit, and we should focus on stable sources of environmentally friendly energy. Whoever can produce that most efficiently should become the primary supplier(s).

Interestingly, he noted that the primary problem we are facing now w.r.t. petroleum is not where *we* get petroleum, rather it is where everyone else gets their petroleum. Our sources are relatively stable (Canada, US, Mexico, Argentina and Saudi Arabia were the ones he mentioned).

By that rationale, what nation that can produce the necessary amount of environmentally friendly energy is more politically stable vis-a-vis the USA than the USA?

Unless this is some sort of workfare for other nations, why should energy independence be a bad pursuit?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Pardon me IT, but in case you haven't noticed the North American economy Canada and the USA is pretty much integrated. Has been that way since the end of WWII.
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ny1911
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Senior Carp
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 08:02 PM
ny1911
Aug 1 2006, 02:25 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:51 AM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 12:39 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 11:16 AM
George K
Aug 1 2006, 12:10 PM
He suggested we start importing from Brazil.

Please tell us that was a joke. :blink:

You're welcome to import sugar beet from Alberta to supplement the oil and natural gas we already export to the US.

I'm sure that would work for you. But it makes no sense to go from one energy dependent import economy to another, given the the US has adequate resources to do it themselves and be self sufficient.

I actually just had a conversation with a Ph.D. on critical resource management. He felt that energy independence was a bad pursuit, and we should focus on stable sources of environmentally friendly energy. Whoever can produce that most efficiently should become the primary supplier(s).

Interestingly, he noted that the primary problem we are facing now w.r.t. petroleum is not where *we* get petroleum, rather it is where everyone else gets their petroleum. Our sources are relatively stable (Canada, US, Mexico, Argentina and Saudi Arabia were the ones he mentioned).

By that rationale, what nation that can produce the necessary amount of environmentally friendly energy is more politically stable vis-a-vis the USA than the USA?

Unless this is some sort of workfare for other nations, why should energy independence be a bad pursuit?

That isn't exactly the point. We should not be too concerned about producing a certain form of energy in the name of energy independence if, for example, we can get it for half price from Canada. This is just an example, and the ultimate energ source might be cheapest if home grown, but that doesn't need to be the primary criteria.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 09:06 PM
Pardon me IT, but in case you haven't noticed the North American economy Canada and the USA is pretty much integrated. Has been that way since the end of WWII.

It's just that sort of lashing out that makes me leery of too much dependence on the Canadians.

:wink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 08:17 PM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 09:06 PM
Pardon me IT, but in case you haven't noticed the North American economy Canada and the USA is pretty much integrated. Has been that way since the end of WWII.

It's just that sort of lashing out that makes me leery of too much dependence on the Canadians.

:wink:

Sometimes its necessary to supremely piss off off your big brother in order to get him to think.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I'd be all in favor of making Alberta the 51st state, if that's what you're getting at...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Heavens no, we take federalism far too seriously up here to want to join The Union or any union for that matter.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Nina
Aug 1 2006, 12:48 PM
Some sources are better than others in terms of the energy/pollution/pesticides required to grow and harvest the crop.


How about bio diesel from Kudzu?

Possible? Practical?
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