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Things in Cuba.....
Topic Started: Jul 31 2006, 07:36 PM (1,040 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
dolmansaxlil
Aug 1 2006, 09:11 AM
My dad stayed in a small Cuban village in the early 90s (not a tourist resort, though they were working on making it one).  The problems the village was facing had a lot more to do with the embargos by the US than the Cuban government.  The villagers were fine with Castro - but they weren't at all pleased with the US.  Because the currency that is commonly used for tourists throughout the rest of the Caribbean is US dollars, that is what the Cuban tourist industries do as well.  There is a lot more money in catering to tourists than there is in catering to the Cuban population.  So many stores accepted only US$ so tourists will shop there.  They did not accept Cuban money.  And it was illegal for a Cuban to have US$.  So many items that they needed (shoes, toothbrushes, etc) were impossible to buy, unless they did it illegally. 

After my dad had been there a few days, a waiter dropped a napkin in his lap.  This DOES NOT HAPPEN.  Waiters in this place were catering to tourists, and mistakes like that were not made.  My dad discreetly opened the napkin and there was a note inside asking if he would meet someone on a nearby street.  My dad went, and it was one of the waiters from the restaurant.  He told my father that the people working at the restaurant had decided that they his group could be trusted, and asked my father if he would go to one of the local stores (which only accepted US$) to buy him a pair of shoes.  He gave my dad $11US, scared to death that my dad would turn him in.  He told my dad which shoes to buy.  My dad went to the shop and they were out of that style of shoes in the man's size.  So my dad bought him a pair of $13 shoes.  When he met with the man to give him the shoes, the man said, "But I can't repay you - I don't have $2. I only have Cuban money"  My dad, of course, told him not to worry about it - it wasn't a big deal.  The man burst into tears and hugged my father, thanking him.

Everyone in my dad's group left Cuba with empty suitcases and only the clothes on their backs.  They gave everything else away to the locals. 

It wasn't that the items weren't available, or that they didn't have the money to buy them - it was that they weren't allowed to have the currency that the shops were dealing in.  The Cuban people my dad met weren't angry at Castro or their political system - they were angry with the US.

I don't know if it's still the same there now - I seem to remember a newsstory saying that they were considering allowing Cubans to use American currency.  So perhaps that angle has changed.

I realize that the US wants everyone in the world to live under a democratic government.  But it's really none of their business how Cuba runs their country.  I think they should shut down the embargo and mind their own business.  Of course, Canada has a good relationship with Cuba, and so the national opinion of the country here is vastly different than the national opinion in the US.

I don't understand the point of your story, or why the Cubans would be mad at the US and not Castro.

It is Castro who keeps them in poverty, it is Castro who has them living in fear, it is Castro who has made it illegal to have US$.

Perhaps they "have" to say they are angry at the US and pro-Fidel so that they don't get carted away to prison or get a bullet in the back of the head?

Please elaborate on why they are all fine with Castro, who cannot even provide his own people with toothbrushes, and cause his people to surreptitiously approach foreign nationals to buy basic necessities under the threat of punishment.
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
But the reason that they can't hold US$ is because of the embargo. It's the tourist industry that is bringing the US$ into the country. It's much more lucrative than providing to the citizens of Cuba. If the embargo wasn't on, then that issue would be erased.

I'm not saying things in Cuba are perfect - I'm fairly certain they are not. However, it's not another nation's place to interfere in domestic affairs when they're not being asked to. Cuba isn't threatening the US, so the US needs to let them do their thing.
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Mikhailoh
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Wait a minute.. it is the Cuban tourist industry that brings US dollars into Cuba, but the stores will not take Cuban money, so Cuban citizens are disadvantaged. And that is our fault how?

US citizens are not permitted to take US dollars to Cuba. So everyone else is using our money I guess. But perhaps laws requiring Cuban merchants to accept their native currency would be more helpful than removing the embargo.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Perhaps they would - but I think the embargo is ridiculous (embargos don't hurt the people in power - they hurt citizens.)

And yes - everyone else IS using your money - because that's the common tourist currency in the rest of the Carribbean, so the tourist folks in Cuba got smart (most of them are run by people who are not Cuban citizens) and decided to jump on board.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
I understand perfectly well what Dol is saying. I have heard the same many times from Russians and Ukrainians on the US g'ovt's proclivity towards interfering in other nation's internal affairs.

What created the Cuban Revolution in the first place? A desire to establish a worker and peasant socialist state? No. It was nationalism and a desire to be independent. Castro was no communist when he and his fellow Cuban revolutionaries exiles fought Batista's army in the Sierra Oriente mountains. He was a Cuban nationalist and patriot. He didn't even like communists other than his brother Raul and, of course, the Argentine Ernesto "Che" Guevara. To call him a Stalinist is nothing short of ignorant.

Castro, like many Cubans, was simply sick and tired of their country being the used as the money laundering whorehouse for the US Mafia and source of cheap labour for the North American apetite for raw sugar. He bought into Moscow's brand of socialism because it was less a threat to Cuban national independence than surrending the revolution to remain Washington's Caribbean sandbox. He saw how American duplicity violently ended the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1953 and did what he had to do to ensure Cuban sovereignty and independence.

You talk about Cuban laws regarding the possesion of US$?

Ha! Trying bringing Cuban cigars or Rum through US Customs. Or better try explaining to US Customs why you have a Cuban Visa in your Canadian passport.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
US policy towards Cuba since the 1980's has been inflexible and idiotic. The cold war's over, guys!
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Mikhailoh
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Well, I guess we should just say, 'Hey.. you want to be a socialist totalitarian state 90 miles from our shores? No problemo, senor! Have some foreign aid!'

Preposterous. And every powerful nation in history has interfered in the affairs of other nations. It is called international relations and the aim is looking out for one's own interests.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Thanks, AC. You know a lot more about Cuba than I would ever claim to.

When my dad's flight was coming back from Cuba, it was still at a time when a flight from Cuba to Canada was not allowed to go through US airspace. :P My dad's plane had engine trouble just off the Cuban coast and was forced to land in Florida. They allowed them to land (after a lot of negotiation). The plane sat on the tarmack and was boarded by a dozen armed US soldiers who stood in the aisles while another group of officials searched all of the luggage. After 6 hours, they were allowed to take off again.
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John D'Oh
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Mikhailoh
Aug 1 2006, 01:37 PM
Well, I guess we should just say, 'Hey.. you want to be a socialist totalitarian state 90 miles from our shores? No problemo, senor! Have some foreign aid!'

Preposterous. And every powerful nation in history has interfered in the affairs of other nations. It is called international relations and the aim is looking out for one's own interests.

How many other countries does the US have a trade embargo with?

The point is that the US policy clearly hasn't achieved it's objectives. He's still there. He's outlived how many US Presidents? He's even outlived the Soviet Union.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
dolmansaxlil
Aug 1 2006, 01:37 PM
When my dad's flight was coming back from Cuba, it was still at a time when a flight from Cuba to Canada was not allowed to go through US airspace. :P

You see, that's just plain childish.
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
I believe they've changed the policy now, John. But yes, it was pretty stupid.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
We always used to have a laugh at all those wonderfully tasteful shops on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls* selling vast quantities of Cuban cigars to the American tourists.

[Unconnected rant]

* Don't ever emigrate to within a 4-5 hour drive of anywhere as amazing as Niagara Falls. Every single flaming relative, friend, or other unspecified Brit who visited just HAD to go see. I've spent more time freezing to death at Niagara than I care to think. And then it was 'visit the vineyards? No, we'd rather stay here by the river...' :veryangry:
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George K
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Finally
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 12:27 PM
To call him a Stalinist is nothing short of ignorant.

I pleaded my ignorance in the first sentence of my post. Guilty as charged.

However, I was addressing a larger point. Is is ever right for a government to "intervene" in the affairs of another when that second one is oppressive (hence the term "Stalinist")? Short of war, where does one draw that line?
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Mikhailoh
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John D'Oh
Aug 1 2006, 01:40 PM
Mikhailoh
Aug 1 2006, 01:37 PM
Well, I guess we should just say, 'Hey.. you want to be a socialist totalitarian state 90 miles from our shores?  No problemo, senor!  Have some foreign aid!'

Preposterous.  And every powerful nation in history has interfered in the affairs of other nations.  It is called international relations and the aim is looking out for one's own interests.

How many other countries does the US have a trade embargo with?

The point is that the US policy clearly hasn't achieved it's objectives. He's still there. He's outlived how many US Presidents? He's even outlived the Soviet Union.

OK.. as a government we're a bunch of serious pricks who hold a grudge. We don't like Castro. So what's your point? It did not achieve the desired end so we should lift it? Why?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 10:27 AM


You talk about Cuban laws regarding the possesion of US$?

Ha! Trying bringing Cuban cigars or Rum through US Customs.

There is a vast difference between controlling and outlawing certain luxury products, and controlling and outlawing a means of exchange that keeps an entire population in poverty.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mikhailoh
Aug 1 2006, 02:09 PM
John D'Oh
Aug 1 2006, 01:40 PM
Mikhailoh
Aug 1 2006, 01:37 PM
Well, I guess we should just say, 'Hey.. you want to be a socialist totalitarian state 90 miles from our shores?  No problemo, senor!  Have some foreign aid!'

Preposterous.  And every powerful nation in history has interfered in the affairs of other nations.  It is called international relations and the aim is looking out for one's own interests.

How many other countries does the US have a trade embargo with?

The point is that the US policy clearly hasn't achieved it's objectives. He's still there. He's outlived how many US Presidents? He's even outlived the Soviet Union.

OK.. as a government we're a bunch of serious pricks who hold a grudge. We don't like Castro. So what's your point? It did not achieve the desired end so we should lift it? Why?

a) Because the embargo is causing harm to ordinary Cubans.

b) Because America would look less stupid.

Aren't those good enough reasons?

Alternatively, you might consider that you cannot enforce democracy on another country, but you can create the kind of environment in which it can take root, and maybe even flourish. Poverty and stagnancy are not among those conditions.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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George K
Aug 1 2006, 10:03 AM

Is is ever right for a government to "intervene" in the affairs of another when that second one is oppressive (hence the term "Stalinist")? Short of war, where does one draw that line?

Yes it is. When that government is either run run by a bunch of kooky clerics (Iran) or heavily armed secular warlord (Hussein's Iraq) that represent a threat to your vital interests. Castro and Cuba certainly never fell into the first category and following the Cuban missle crisis certianly made no effort to become the latter.

Look at this way, Washington courted Tito because he represented a turd in Moscow's European sandbox. Moscow returned the favour when Castro came on the scene. Castro and Tito shared much in common.
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Aug 1 2006, 10:13 AM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 10:27 AM


You talk about Cuban laws regarding the possesion of US$?

Ha! Trying bringing Cuban cigars or Rum through US Customs.

There is a vast difference between controlling and outlawing certain luxury products, and controlling and outlawing a means of exchange that keeps an entire population in poverty.

You're just peeved because Castro allows them to have Canadian dollars.

Why don't you just sit down relax and smoke a Cuban joint?

Maybe watch some video footage of JPII's visit to Havana while you sip a Cuban rum Daquiri.
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George K
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Finally
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 01:53 PM
George K
Aug 1 2006, 10:03 AM

Is is ever right for a government to "intervene" in the affairs of another when that second one is oppressive (hence the term "Stalinist")? Short of war, where does one draw that line?

Yes it is. When that government is either run run by a bunch of kooky clerics (Iran) or heavily armed secular warlord (Hussein's Iraq) that represent a threat to your vital interests. Castro and Cuba certainly never fell into the first category and following the Cuban missle crisis certianly made no effort to become the latter.

Look at this way, Washington courted Tito because he represented a turd in Moscow's European sandbox. Moscow returned the favour when Castro came on the scene. Castro and Tito shared much in common.

Thanks, AC. As usual, you make sense.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
AlbertaCrude
Aug 1 2006, 02:58 PM

Maybe watch some video footage of JPII's visit to Havana while you sip a Cuban rum Daquiri.

Oh, that was just plain mean. :lol2:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Aug 1 2006, 02:09 PM

OK.. as a government we're a bunch of serious pricks who hold a grudge. We don't like Castro. So what's your point? It did not achieve the desired end so we should lift it? Why?

The trade embargo was put in place to end Castro's reign. It did not. It will not. In fact, it gives Castro lots of propoganda material that promotes solidarity in the Cuban population - shifting blame to the US. The embargos are hurting Cuban citizens - NOT the government - which just adds fuel to that fire.

It's an all or nothing approach. Any improvement in Castro's policies are met with more of the same. It's not promoting a move toward a democratic government. By not relaxing in response to any improvments that might be made, it's providing Castro with more ammunition to make the US out as the bad guy.

It also alienates people who want to bring about change in Cuba. Because countries are dusgruntled by the failed embargos to make change, they are also reluctant to speak up about human rights concerns in Cuba, because there is the worry that it will make the US take an even firmer stance and dig its heels in on something that isn't working - and has never worked - to bring about change in Cuba.

Lastly, the fact that the US won't let anyone go to Cuba except for a very small number of people (journallists, and people with relatives in Cuba) go there (and those with relatives can only go every 3 years, I believe), it's not exactly condusive to allowing the Cuban people to communicate with the outside world. Communication and realizing what they might be able to have if they were to question their government may be exactly what is needed to bring about change in Cuba.

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John Jacob Jingoism Smith
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Middle Aged Carp
Let's not forget that the Cuban Americans that will be behind the drive to retake the island were Cubans who were not 'immigrants' to the US, but rather 'exiles'. They were the upper and middle classes, the business owners, the doctors, the educated, the intellectuals. They were what Americans would call the pillars of society- and they did not come to the US 'seeking a better life'.

Their businesses, properties, and homes were seized by Castro and it was pretty clear that if they did not go to the US, their days on earth would be quite numbered.

Exiles, not immigrants.

I'm not going to argue whether it was better to stick with the embargo or not, or various other US policies. I am not wise enough to know what the outcome would have if things were different. Though for the record, I do not believe in putting ideology above humanity. However, there were some alternatives to the embargo that were a whole lot nastier. Let's not forget when Castro wanted to send some nukes our way.

But anyone who believes that Nazi-seized treasures ought to be returned to their rightful owners ought to look carefully at what really happened in Cuba, and what rightfully belongs to whom, and how much one should concede to Castroism. If one believes that it is wrong for dictators to seize the properties of others, and that it is right for those who have had their properties seized to get some justice in the end, one has to carefully weigh where the real wrongs and rights are in Castro vs the exile community.
Jingoism

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dang it, Smitty, you really are sounding like a conservative! :wink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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George K
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Finally
[satire]

Carter Downplays Castro Succession Rumors
by Scott Ott

(2006-08-01) — Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter today downplayed rumors that he’s on “the short list” of potential replacements if surgery fails to restore the health of ailing Cuban dictator Fidel Castro.

Mr. Carter dismissed as “mere coincidence” that his Op-Ed piece critical of the Bush administration’s foreign policy appeared in The Washington Post the same day that news broke of Mr. Castro’s surgery and temporary transfer of power to his brother Raoul.

But an unnamed source close to the icon of progressive social policy said, “no one in Cuba has the necessary charisma to fill Fidel’s shoes, and no one in the world has demonstrated a greater affinity for Castro’s vision of a progressive social order coupled with a consistent record of working to diminish U.S. power and influence abroad.”

[/satire]
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
John Jacob Jingoism Smith
Aug 1 2006, 12:04 PM
Let's not forget when Castro wanted to send some nukes our way.


In reality Castro was uneasy about the Soviets placing nukes on the island. Rather it was his brother Raul and Che who were the proponents of sending Washington a nuclear message. Indeed there is no doubt that Raul and Che in particular, if given the authority and opportunity, would have pressed the nuclear button. In the end Castro went along with the Soviet deployment plan because he considered it a visible deterrent to another Bay of Pigs style invasion and he desperately needed continued Soviet technical assistance for agriculture and industry. Khrushchev of course saw it as a golden opportunity to respond to US Jupiter Missles already in Turkey.

In the end, the brinkmanship of the crisis forced the US begrudgingly to acknowledge the Revolution's sovereignty, although not legitimacy, over what it considered to be rightful Caribbean playpen and recognize Moscow's concerns over the US nukes on its borders in Turkey. The US agreed to withdraw the nukes within 6 months if the Soviets kept it secret. The US' non disclosure caveat ultimately cost Khrushchev his job as Gen Sec. For conservative Kremlin hardliners such as Suslov, Kirilenko, Kuusinen and the Foreign Minister, Gromyko, already tired of Krushchev's unpredictable and at times ridiculous public statements, hairbrained agriculture policies, this meant the USSR would lose face in the eyes of the world. Within a year Khrushchev was ousted and retired to his dacha under house arrest in the country until his death in 1971.
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