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Mel Gibson and the ****ing Jews
Topic Started: Jul 30 2006, 09:43 AM (2,841 Views)
The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
Jul 30 2006, 09:07 PM
you keep making a lot of really stupid statements.
Jeffrey
Jul 30 2006, 02:51 PM
IT is defending a bigoted anti-semitic Catholic.

What else is new?


i have not defended Gibson. I think his actions were unconscionable, and I am glad that he apologized.
Jeffrey
Jul 30 2006, 03:50 PM
Gibson likely got his anti-semitism from Opus Dei.  I can see why IT would like to deflect attention from this.


I know a lot about OD, and I don't like the organization. I have neither the inclination to defend them nor any reason to deflect attention. In fact, as far as I know Gibson has no relationship to OD, he hangs around sede vacantist groups such as P12ers.

In short, you just keep spouting off a lot of stupid things about me and about things that you know nothing about. I realize that might not particularly bother you, but come off looking like a real putz.

Ivory, didn't you know he supports the killing of Catholics?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
George K
Jul 30 2006, 05:47 PM
John D'Oh
Jul 30 2006, 07:43 PM
Let's face it, the New Testament paints some Jews in a pretty unfavourable light.

That's my point.

If one understands the general and shameful theology about the collective guilt of all Jews taught throughout much of the last 2000 years and espoused by much of Chrstianity, one understands that a "few Jews" shown in a bad light is not the issue. A "few Jews" calling "May his blood be on us and on our children" is all that is needed to harken back to that time since that was the Scriptural basis for this collective guilt believed to be shared by all Jews for all time.

This becomes even more important when dealing with an artist like Gibson whose religious views led him to leave the Roman Catholic Church because it became too liberal after Vatican II -- which was when the Roman Church finally got around to condemning anti-semiticism as a sin.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
George K
Jul 30 2006, 06:12 PM
Steve, I understand your point, however, to condemn a certain faction of a population (such as radical Islamists) is not the same as condemning the whole group. You disagree with some Americans (in their politics). Is that the same as condemning all?


If I understand you correctly, your point is that the movie deals unfavorably with certain individuals who happen to be Jewish, and this does not necessarily indicate an anti-Semitic slant.

Fair enough.

Back to you, then. Having seen Gibson's recent diatribe drunken rant, if you saw the movie again do you think you might come away with a different view of the message?
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Zimmer
Jul 31 2006, 12:41 AM
The 89th Key
Jul 30 2006, 02:21 PM
Actually a more comprehensive list:

etc.


I have never seen a list of Catholics or Protestants or Muslims or gays or straights or anything else?

Why a list of Jews?

(As if I didn't know....)

listing jews in an old tradition.

i believe the book of matthew starts out with one.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Steve Miller
Jul 30 2006, 06:30 PM
Having seen Gibson's recent disatribe,

I am not sure a drunken rant qualifies as a diatribe.

So was his movie "The Patriot" anti-English? Or "Braveheart"? Why aren't the anglophiles up in arms about those movies? (I just know I'm going to get John D'oh started!).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
bachophile
Jul 30 2006, 06:47 PM

listing jews in an old tradition.

i believe the book of matthew starts out with one.

I think you guys started it with Numbers.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
FWIW, ive never thought making a fuss about movies is such an issue. just like DV code, it came with a splash, and was forgoten in a week. same with the passion.

i think the impact of movies is way overrated.

esp on religion.

books are a much more powerful medium.

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Jul 30 2006, 06:47 PM
Steve Miller
Jul 30 2006, 06:30 PM
Having seen Gibson's recent disatribe,

I am not sure a drunken rant qualifies as a diatribe.

So was his movie "The Patriot" anti-English? Or "Braveheart"? Why aren't the anglophiles up in arms about those movies? (I just know I'm going to get John D'oh started!).

I changed it for you, and fixed the typo in "diatribe" which, having included it in the quote, you are now free to taunt me with forever. : :wink:

But I'm not up in arms - never really thought much about the movie - or Gibson - much one way or the other. About the only part of the whole movie extravaganza that interested me was how much $ he made, and what he would do with it. I recall speculating here on how much good Catholic Worker could do with some $300 mil at their disposal.

We now of course, know what he's doing with it.

He's drinking it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Steve Miller
Jul 30 2006, 06:57 PM


He's drinking it.

It seems as if he's long been drinking it, he's now just drinking a better grade of it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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George K
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Finally
Steve Miller
Jul 30 2006, 08:30 PM
Fair enough.

Back to you, then. Having seen Gibson's recent diatribe drunken rant, if you saw the movie again do you think you might come away with a different view of the message?

Fair enough as well, Steve.

Taking his comments to the police officer certainly does color my opinion of Gibson. He's more of a twit than I thought before.

However, I really didn't see TPOTC as being all that anti-semetic, though I'm viewing it through the prism of a very, very flawed ex-Catholic/ex-Lutheran. Perhaps a Jew can help me here.

Can an artist produce work that is not colored by his personal beliefs? Probably. Look at the politics of the Dixie Chicks. Their music does not reflect their politics. Look at Kurt Vonnegut or (gasp!) Oliver Stone. Perhaps when it comes to religion, things are different.

I don't know.

I'm on vacation. Maybe I'll watch TPOTC again, if I can stomach it.
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Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
George K
Jul 30 2006, 07:14 PM
Can an artist produce work that is not colored by his personal beliefs? Probably.


I'm sure they can, and I've no doubt that Gibson could have - had he wanted to.

But in the case of TPOTC I can't see it as anything other than an expression of Gibson's beliefs. How could it be otherwise?
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George K
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Finally
Steve Miller
Jul 30 2006, 09:25 PM
But in the case of TPOTC I can't see it as anything other than an expression of Gibson's beliefs. How could it be otherwise?

Agreed. In fact he has said exactly that. However, how is it anti-Semetic?

Not being snarkyŽ, Steve. Genuinely curious.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
IT: Gibson goes into an anti-semitic rant, and you defend him by saying, well, maybe he got his views from meeting all the Jews who control Hollywood. Now you try to deny ever having defended Gibson from the charge of anti-semitism. At least have the courage of your convictions.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
i saw the passion while on reserve duty once at a israeli air force base.

didnt think it was such a big deal, except the terrible accents trying to mouth aramaic words.

did i think it was antisemitic?

not more so then the NT itself. again a can of worms, but i do believe the gospels were redacted with a specific agenda, to emphasize the guilt of the jewish establishment and exonerate the romans, something which is clearly historically not accurate, but makes for good reading.

yes mel colored it with the hallucinations of Anne Catherine Emmerich, which goes beyond the NT in terms of graphic detail, but that is a subtlety which wont be apparent to the casual viewer

so bottom line, to a jewish viewer, i dont think the passion was something worth making a fuss about.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
The apology.
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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Nina
Senior Carp
It's not clear that Gibson has apologized. What is abundantly clear is that his publicist is earning his money this weekend.

Seriously, and yes a hijack: what are the characteristics of a "good" apology? I would think that avoiding euphemisms and delivering it personally would be on the list.
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The 89th Key
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Of course he has apologized, Nina.

What is unclear?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jul 30 2006, 07:27 PM
IT: Gibson goes into an anti-semitic rant, and you defend him by saying, well, maybe he got his views from meeting all the Jews who control Hollywood.  Now you try to deny ever having defended Gibson from the charge of anti-semitism.  At least have the courage of your convictions.

Reread it-- doesn't matter -- You'll spin it any way that suits you.

You are wrong about me, you are wrong about my wanting to wanting to distract from Opus Dei, you are wrong about Gibson and Opus Dei. But being wrong evidently means nothng to you as long as you think you can continue to pursue a personal attack and save face.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Nina
Jul 30 2006, 05:31 PM


So what exactly is your point?

What exactly is your point, Nina? I simply cited a quote from a fellow who seems beyond reproach in his estimation of the number of Jews in Hollywood. Had I quoted David Duke that would be rightly dismissed, and I had I not cited my authority you'd have me up on charges of plagairism. No agenda, it is just a citation.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Nina
Senior Carp
IT, you must be joking. Do you really expect me to believe that your comment about Jews running Hollywood was a non sequitor? It was in response to 89th's comment that he didn't understand how anyone could be an anti-Semite "without apparent reason."

You opine that an apparent reason is all the angst he went through when working for the 60% of Jews who run Hollywood.

As Stein says, "The only real reason why the question of whether Jews "run" Hollywood is at all interesting is because there is some residual thought...that Jews are sinister and alien. "

You assumed that Gibson's experiences with the Jews in Hollywood must have been negative ("sinister and alien," to quote Stein), otherwise they would not have served to "confirm his bias."

Allow me to quote Stein from later in the article: "I marvel that when people criticize the auto industry for making trucks that catch fire when they are struck and cars that turn over on a turn, no one ever says 'the gentile auto industry'....As far as I can recall, Hollywood, and only Hollywood, gets the treatment as being somehow sinister and alien."
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Nina - Alas, I fear he is not joking. He has made many similar comments before.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Re Passion, I thought the most eggregiously anti-semitic scene was when he showed those little jewish boys turning into demons. Other than that I agree with bach - it was only anti-semitic insofar as the NT is anti-semitic.


IT - I too was taken aback by your first comment in this thread. Even if you didn't mean it this way, it came off as if you were saying that having worked with or for Jews gives one reason to be anti-semitic.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Steve Miller
Jul 30 2006, 05:57 PM

I changed it for you, and fixed the typo in "diatribe" which, having included it in the quote,  you are now free to taunt me with forever.

At least he is a equal opportunity taunter. :P

I wonder what IT gets from taunting.
Pointing out flaws in others must give him some payback.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
This has nothing to do with Gibson, TPOTC, or anti-Semitism:

"As Stein says, "The only real reason why the question of whether Jews "run" Hollywood is at all interesting is because there is some residual thought...that Jews are sinister and alien. " "

I like Ben Stein, but I'm not sure I agree with this comment. If I apply the same logic, then, is it also true that the real reason some people get concerned when there is a higher percentage of whites in a school, an office, or being awarded business contracts, than their overall percentage of the population, that there is some residual thought that whites are sinister and alien?

Of course not - at least not for most people who voice concern. The question, whether valid or not, is whether such over-representation by a single group or culture - by default more than by actual intent - has the effect of over-emphasizing the overriding cultural viewpoint of the dominant group; and an under-representation or squelching of the cultural viewpoint of the subordinate group. This concern certainly needn't require a hatred of the dominant group, only a recognition - or at least a perception - that the issues important to the group may not be given sufficient concern by the dominant group.

Concern that whites dominating a school will create an environment that's either hostile to, or at least insensitive to, the concerns and issues of blacks.

Concern that a large concentration of Jews dominating leadership of the film industry would be hostile to, or at least insensitive to, the concerns and issues of non-Jews.

Concern over the possibility that evangelical Christians might be a majority in some government body, and that they'd be hostile to, or at least insensitive to, the concerns and issues of non-evangelical Christians.

Concern that too many conservatives - or liberals - on the Supreme Court will be hostile to, or at least insenstive to, the concerns and issues of the subordinate group.

Each of these examples is framed by the exact same underlying concern. Can each of those arguments be made from a standpoint of bigotry? Obviously. But can they also be made out of genuine concern, without bigotry and the view that the dominant group is "sinister and alien? Of course.



"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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George K
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Finally
Abraham Foxman, the director of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, wants the police to open a criminal probe into Gibson's stupid remarks:

"Gibson's reported criticism of Jews, contained in a leaked police report detailing his arrest early on Friday morning, included the phrase: "F*****g Jews. The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world."

He has since apologised for his actions, saying they were "despicable", but community Jewish leaders called for Gibson to be ostracised from Hollywood, where the A-list actor is considered an industry powerbroker.

Calling for a criminal investigation into the Oscar-winning actor and director's remarks, Abraham Foxman, the national director of the US Jewish Anti-Defamation League, said: "We believe there should be consequences to bigots and bigotry.""
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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