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And the hits just keep on comin'; Saddam and Anthrax in 2002
Topic Started: Jul 6 2006, 08:49 PM (556 Views)
George K
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Finally
Rick Zimmer
Jul 7 2006, 12:21 PM
Do we know what the Anthrax Operation was -- or are we making assumptions and using those assumptions to justify the massive losses this war has cost the united States, the Iraqis and the world?

Whoa! Just felt the earth move.

So, Rick, based on that post, you agree that Saddam had an Anthrax program, right? Now all you're doing is questioning his motivation?
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
DivaDeb
Jul 7 2006, 01:23 PM
John...you're smart.

Very nice of you to say so, but let's be honest, this isn't rocket science. At least, it shouldn't be. What is wrong with humanity when we worry more about looking stupid or about losing a few votes, than we do about people dying? The sad thing is that from what I've heard*, quite a few of the problems in Iraq are being exacerbated by exactly the same kind of self-serving politicos over there that we all know and love over here.

*This is from blogs and gossip, and I don't have any hard evidence to back it up, but is anybody really surprised?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 10:09 AM
If you disagreed with the war, say so, but then accept that the war is now a fact of life. Move on. Harping on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about the same tired points over and over and ...you get the picture...isn't going to make the situation go away. The question that we now need focus on is 'where do we go from here'? This sh!t's too important for partisan thinking and political point scoring. Sadly, the vast majority of politicians on both sides of the divide aren't very good at much else.

Why are you pointing this comment at those of us who are anti-Iraw War? Might I point out it is those who support the war that keep harping on the validity of it. It has been a very long time since I have seen any anti-Iraq war poster starting a thread challenging the reasons for the war, but I see a continuous flow of threads trying to justify the starting of the the war.

When there is a discussion here about the justiofication for the war, it is inevitably in a thread like this, started by those who support the war and keep trying to justify it.

Those of us who disagree with it long ago recognized the justification used for it was bogus and now are talking about what to do. As I have said over and oiver again, it is my believe that we get out of it as fast as we can and turn our attention to fighting the real enemy which we should have done from the very beginning.

Others have said we need to find a way to stabilize Iraq and then get out. Indeed, it is those of us who oppose the war who raise the issue of what to do now far more than those who keep dragging up documents and then interpreting them to argue that the war was justifed from the very beginning.

Methinks you shot your arrow in the wrong direction, John.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
the reason you're smart shows up in that answer...about the stupidest characteristic of humanity is it's arrogance about how much it knows. Smart people consider their viewpoints minute by minute and aren't afraid to have them altered by *either* side. They're teachable and continue to learn as they go through life. I said you're smart and I'm right

:P
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Rick Zimmer
Jul 7 2006, 01:29 PM
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 10:09 AM
If you disagreed with the war, say so, but then accept that the war is now a fact of life. Move on. Harping on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about the same tired points over and over and ...you get the picture...isn't going to make the situation go away. The question that we now need focus on is 'where do we go from here'? This sh!t's too important for partisan thinking and political point scoring. Sadly, the vast majority of politicians on both sides of the divide aren't very good at much else.

Why are you pointing this comment at those of us who are anti-Iraw War? Might I point out it is those who support the war that keep harping on the validity of it. It has been a very long time since I have seen any anti-Iraq war poster starting a thread challenging the reasons for the war, but I see a continuous flow of threads trying to justify the starting of the the war.

When there is a discussion here about the justiofication for the war, it is inevitably in a thread like this, started by those who support the war and keep trying to justify it.

Those of us who disagree with it long ago recognized the justification used for it was bogus and now are talking about what to do. As I have said over and oiver again, it is my believe that we get out of it as fast as we can and turn our attention to fighting the real enemy which we should have done from the very beginning.

Others have said we need to find a way to stabilize Iraq and then get out. Indeed, it is those of us who oppose the war who raise the issue of what to do now far more than those who keep dragging up documents and then interpreting them to argue that the war was justifed from the very beginning.

Methinks you shot your arrow in the wrong direction, John.

I'd like a few Democrats to start admitting that they believed that there were WMD's and that they may have been wrong without blaming Bush. Politicians never like to admit their mistakes, as they believe it betrays weakness. Most of them are too stupid or too arrogant to realise that the opposite applies.

I disagreed with the war because I thought it would turn into a quagmire, not because I didn't think that Saddam should be force-fed his own genitals and have his head put on a spike. His government was barbaric, and his removal is a good thing. The bad thing is that Iraq is now enormously unstable, and that instability was caused by the invasion. If the US runs away now, sure, no more Americans will die, but lots and lots of Iraqis will, there'll be a bloodbath, followed by a fundamentalist Islamic government that will sponsor terrorism against the US. Is that what we want? Do you think what the US did at the end of the Vietnam war was a good thing? How many died when the North Vietnamese invaded? How many American lives were saved? Did it balance?

We broke it, we now need to try and fix it.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
Methinks that you're the one who has it backwards Rick. Since summer of 2003, the mantra of the left has been "Bush Lied!" "There are no WMD's!" "The war is unjustified!"

I have posted several - OK, many - articles pointing out that the claim that WMD's were either in existence or in development is true. Your criticisms of the posts consist of either questioning the source (The Weekly Standard) or parsing adverbs and adjectives.

I know that you will never be convinced that these programs existed. As I said to Opera Tenor, you can't prove a negative, only a positive. I find these documents to be damning. To deny the hundreds and hundreds of them as being false is wishful thinking.

You made the (finger-pointing) statement that
Quote:
 
Might I point out it is those who support the war that keep harping on the validity of it.


One need not search too hard to find threads titled:

Afghanistan Continues To Deteriorate
Further Evidence of Bush's Misguided Policies
Military Opposed Bush From Beginning
More Evidence of the Failures of Bush's Policies
The Blood On Bush's Hands
The Consequences of Bush's Tragic Strategy

And that's just from the last 16 threads you started.

Harping? Heh...
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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George K
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Finally
Speaking of harps, let me strum this one:

http://70.168.46.200/Released%5C07-05-06/C...2003-004346.pdf

Dr. Rehab Rasheed Taha, otherwise known as Dr. Germ, prepared an analysis in 2002 of how to spread biological weapons material using an aircraft as the medium, and how far they had advanced on the application:

In the name of God, most Merciful, most Compassionate

THE BIOLOGICAL COMMITTEE DECISION

An appendage to the Biological Committee Decision, on 10 March 2002, subsequent to the biological activity combined list review, that was received after the delegate’s return from Moscow, and in reference to the concluded meeting convened on 10 April 2002, [when] the (GRL) draft list study was completed. – The Biological Section is evaluating what is shown in the third revised attachment for the continuous observation and examination plan. - The grades are subject to change according to the automation of export and import controls, according to resolution 1051 (1996) issued in document No. (S / 2001 / 560) which shows us the following:

1 – What is included in the draft list (GRL) is similar to what is included in the revised comments; submissive grades according to the system of export and import controls except the following:

a. Paragraph 7-1 from the revised statement and the (GRL) draft about the aircraft sprayers that are able to scatter dust. The dispensing percentage exceeds the one liter suspended liquid per minute or 10 grams of the dry substance per minute, therefore the size of the aerosol or dust portions were increased to the size of (15) microns or less.

b. A new paragraph under No. (11) was added to the draft list (GRL). According to that, it combined microscopic conservation equipment and Micro Encapsulation that was taken from the reviewed merchandise list (the additional list) stated in resolution (1382) 2001.

c. The (GRL) draft list indicated changes to the biological part, which was placed in the last page of the draft. Agents were added for the use of tissues and cell cultures (Cell Culture Mediators), and added cell growth cultures to cow fetus serums of (1) liter or more. These changes are not included in the mentioned list in paragraph (5) relating to culture media.

2. According to the changes shown in Paragraph (1-7), it increases the size of aerosol portions or the dust, and limits it to within (15) microns or less that and does not create a problem. The available information that we’ve been referring to is that agricultural usage doesn’t need these small sizes (quantities), but larger sizes (quantities). What is related to the change in the previously added paragraph (11), combining microscopic conservation equipment and micro encapsulation also does not create a problem because the use of this equipment is very limited, and it does not effect the production or research process.

Changes mentioned (suggested) in paragraph (5), that subjoin culture agents used in tissue culturing or cells and cell growth culturing to cow fetus serum is not considered a problem. These agents [were] originally entered including the complicated culture agent paragraph mentioned in paragraph (5) from the revised comments of the grades that are subject to notification in accordance to the system of imports and exports, that were imposed by resolution 1051 (1996).

Review please with respects.

Dr. Rehab Rasheed Taha
Committee Chief
Captain
Senan Abdel Hassan
Member
04-13-2002
Thamer Abdel Rahman
Member
04-13-2002
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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George K
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Finally
Another string to pluck:

As I said elsewhere, the fact that these documents may be embarassing to our allies is borne out here:

http://70.168.46.200/Released%5C07-05-06/C...2003-000878.pdf

Bulletproof Vests from Russia

Thirteen thousand vests were imported from Russia by request from the Presidential Command Office; they were all turned over to Qusai Saddam Hussein eight days before the war. Three Russian experts came with the vests, and the deal had been financed through a wealthy man in al-Kut (180 km south of Baghdad). [The suits] were bought for 250 dollars and then sold to Qusai Saddam Hussein for 600 dollars; they had sneaked into [Iraq] by way of [Syria] after [being] wrapped by Swedish jackets (so as not to embarrass Syria) as well as to deceive the American Intelligence, [however] [the American Intelligence] was able to discover this operation.

This suit is characterized by its ability to withstand a round from an American made M16-A2 (which has a very high speed and a piercing head) from a distance of only 5 meters, and the MG 7.62 [mm] machine gun at the same distance.

Advanced Russian T-72 Heavy Tank Engines

This tank is considered the gem of the Russian (Armored divisions); it has a 125 mm smoothbore barrel, and is capable of firing an APFSD (armor-piercing) round. These tanks suffer from engine [problems] from their use in the Iran-Iraq and Gulf wars. Iraq at most used 25 liters of engine oil per month on these tanks [and] Republican Guard officers always complained about their [the tanks] movement (During Operation Desert Fox in 1998, they were only able to move 6 tanks a distance of 1200 meters from the other 21 tanks.) One characteristic of a Russian armored tank is that the greatest emphasis is put on fire, then force, movement, and armor, in that order. Suddenly, there were new engines imported from Russia, and Republican Guard units were provided with 70 engines for each unit; these engines passed though Syria one month before the war.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
George K
Jul 7 2006, 10:02 AM
Another string to pluck:

As I said elsewhere, the fact that these documents may be embarassing to our allies is borne out here:


... make no mistake about it. Russia is not a US ally, nor does it want to be one.... but circumstances may require yet another temporary alliance of convenience some time in the future.
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George K
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Finally
And another string to pluck. This harps starting to sound like a symphony, no?

Another interesting piece of information regarding Saddam Hussein's pursuit of WMD. In a summary of a larger document, the translators found that Iraq had restarted its processing of castor-bean extraction, from which ricin can be developed -- and that UNMOVIC (The United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission) discovered it in December 2002.


From CMPC-2003-003766-HT.pdf:

Ricin toxin is found in the bean of the castor plant. UNMOVIC inspections since December 2002 have verified that the bombed caster oil extraction plant at Fallujah III has been reconstructed on a larger scale.

Undeclared BW agents, there are a number of microorganisms and toxins that have been developed as BW agents by several countries, including Bacillus anthracis (anthrax), Clostridium bottalinum toxin, Yersinia pestis (plague), Francisella tularensis (tularemia), Brucella species (Brucellosis) Coxiella burnetti (Q fever) and Variola major (smallpox). Drying of BW Agents, BW agents are produced by a process that usually results in a liquid product, for example bacteria in an aqueous suspension, or toxins in an aquesous or organic solution.

Bacterial BW agent production, this requires certain equipment, typically a fomenter and down stream processing equipment such as separators and settling tanks. Also required for the production of bacterial BW agents are nutrients that are dissolved in water and added to the fermenter. The lack of supporting documentation makes it difficult for UNMOVIC to confirm Iraq's figures on the quantities of bacterial BW agent produced.

Genetic Engineering and Viral Research. Genetic Engineering, a process whereby an organism's genetic material is modified, has many medical and industrial applications. BW Agent Stimulants are chemicals or microorganisms that have very similar characteristics and properties to a biological warfare agent.

UNMOVIC inspections and Iraqi declarations confirm that Iraq continues working with organisms that could be used as BW agent stimulates. The documents display after each section the actions that Iraq could take to help in resolving the issue and convincing the UN inspection teams that the activity have stopped or were fruitless and so on.


So here we have confirmation that Iraq continued to work on WMD, and that the new UNMOVIC inspections verified that. We had previously heard from the mainstream media that UNMOVIC only found that the Iraqis still refused to cooperate fully with the inspections, but this puts a little different light on the situation as the UN found it as they debated how to deal with Iraq. Even with Saddam actively pursuing WMD, as it turns out, they refused to take any action except to propose extended inspections.

Once again, it looks like Saddam's own documentation makes it clear that he had never stopped working on WMD programs. This time, it also shows that UNMOVIC and the UNSC knew it.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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George K
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Finally
By the way, Hans Blix never mentioned ricin or castor beans in his UN presentation on March 7, 2003. In fact, it never even mentions the word "violation" once.

These are the guys that we were supposed to have faith in? The ones who we were supposed to let do their jobs? It would give Blix some credibility if he had read his own outfit's reports.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Those of us who disagree with it long ago recognized the justification used for it was bogus and now are talking about what to do.


Yes, you and your ideologically constipated group are still talking about "what to do" based on an erroneous decision you made from the get go, and are too hidebound in your viewpoints to open your eyes and take a look around and see that you have always, and from the very beginning, been going down the wrong road. Instead of reassessing things and noting your error - and the evidence your viewpoint is in error is piling up on an almost daily basis - you and your group of lemmings just close your eyes and continue harping on your same tired, worn out, and utterly shattered by the facts opinions that you always have.

As Divadeb said so well, "Smart people consider their viewpoints minute by minute and aren't afraid to have them altered by *either* side. They're teachable and continue to learn as they go through life." You have never considered anything other than the viewpoint that you formulated back in the 60s, and you've spent your entire life forcing everything to comport with your childhood ignorance. You are unteachable, untrainable, and completely unable as a result to understand the truth, much less accept it.

Your views about Iraq are wrong. The facts proving you wrong pile up by the day, and have been given to you to examine ad nauseum.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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