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God help us from these lunatics
Topic Started: Jul 5 2006, 02:50 PM (1,553 Views)
George K
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Finally
DivaDeb
Jul 6 2006, 05:49 PM
I think JBryan commented on the thread title.

*stomps foot again*

Damn! (is that another religious reference?)

:veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry:
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- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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The 89th Key
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I love your avatar, GK!

HERRO! :D
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kluurs
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Fulla-Carp
Free speech...people get to spend money as they choose - do what we might perceive of as silly or even offensive things. In the scheme of things, some of us might think this goofy or offensive - but we've seen crucifixes in toilets debated as to whether this is art or not.

I don't disagree with some of the comments of people that this can be interpretted as perhaps changing the message of lady liberty in ways that many might not like - but people do that all the time with art and cartoons. It's a way of sending a message.

We complained about Muslims getting riled about cartoons - and that we encourage freedom of expression - so what's the problem?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jul 6 2006, 03:18 PM
AlbertaCrude
Jul 6 2006, 02:15 PM
:yes:... and those same knobheads take their instruction manual quite literally.

Of course, that just goes back to the questoin of whether all religions are of equal merit. Start a new thread for that one, and fasten your seat belts.

It brings up the question of knobheads of all denominations who take their instruction manual too literally. I'm not convinced a knobhead without an instruction manual is any worse than one with. The other way around, perhaps.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
sue
Jul 6 2006, 07:13 PM
Dewey
Jul 6 2006, 03:18 PM
AlbertaCrude
Jul 6 2006, 02:15 PM
:yes:... and those same knobheads take their instruction manual quite literally.

Of course, that just goes back to the questoin of whether all religions are of equal merit. Start a new thread for that one, and fasten your seat belts.

It brings up the question of knobheads of all denominations who take their instruction manual too literally. I'm not convinced a knobhead without an instruction manual is any worse than one with. The other way around, perhaps.

A knobhead with a mission is a very dangerous thing.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
A knobhead is as a knobhead does. Simply owning or reading one's instruction manual won't necessary save a person from knobdom. ^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jul 6 2006, 03:17 PM
A knobhead with a mission is a very dangerous thing.

And a knobhead without one is just fun to laugh at.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Rick Zimmer
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Dwain and 89th...

Some questions....

Are you two arguing simply that if individuals acted in a more Christian manner that the society would be better because there would be less people doing bad things? Or are you arguing that the societal laws and mores in general should be based on adherence to Christian values and that would reduce social ills?

Also, are you arguing that the evil in the society is being allowed if not encouraged or caused by God because of your preception that there is too much rejection of Christian morals? Or are you simply arguing that there are immoral people doing immoral things, hence there is too much evil being done in Amercia?

Finally, do you see such things as natural disasters and attacks on buildings by jet airlines as the result of God's reaction to what you percieve to be immorality in America?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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David Burton
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Rick Zimmer
Jul 5 2006, 11:17 PM
Methinks Americans need a touch of humility if we actually think that God plays favorites -- and that we are the favorite!

And I suppose people like you would give her the "humiliating" you think she deserves.

And God obviously plays favorites, else the world would be the paradise of perfect equality people like you long for – WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU RUNNING IT.

Yeah, and per usual, I’m with JBryan on this one too: tacky in the extreme, but hey, some people I know would like nothing better than to erect 50’ statues of the Virgin Mary too. In some places they already have. I suppose the godless would have as many complaints about them too. I’m still waiting for someone to advocate the reworking of Mt. Rushmore.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I wonder how much this cost?

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Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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The 89th Key
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Rick,

Quote:
 
Dwain and 89th...

Some questions....

Are you two arguing simply that if individuals acted in a more Christian manner that the society would be better because there would be less people doing bad things?


Yes, I am.

Quote:
 
Or are you arguing that the societal laws and mores in general should be based on adherence to Christian values and that would reduce social ills?


Although I'm not saying that, I do agree with it.

Quote:
 
Also, are you arguing that the evil in the society is being allowed if not encouraged or caused by God because of your preception that there is too much rejection of Christian morals?


No, I'm not saying that and I'm undecided on that issue. Long story short, I think God is pretty much hands-off in the world, for the good and bad. He's here alright, but I'm not sure how much direct influence He is having. I believe he knows everything that will happen, but doesn't necessarily make it happen.

Quote:
 
Or are you simply arguing that there are immoral people doing immoral things, hence there is too much evil being done in Amercia?


I think that's indisputable.

Quote:
 
Finally, do you see such things as natural disasters and attacks on buildings by jet airlines as the result of God's reaction to what you percieve to be immorality in America?


Although I think this was covered in your 3rd question, if I were to take a stance, it would be "no".

Interesting questions, and thanks for organizing it Rick. It can sometimes get a bit foggy in here.
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AlbertaCrude
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David Burton
Jul 6 2006, 09:58 PM
I’m still waiting for someone to advocate the reworking of Mt. Rushmore.


Or the Crazy Horse Memorial in South Dakota

"To understand the massive size of the mountain carving in progress, consider this: All four faces on Mount Rushmore would fit inside just Crazy Horse's head. Crazy Horse's outstretched arm will be almost the length of a football field. When completed, the sculpture will be 8 feet taller than the Washington Monument."

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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Crazy is right. :blink: Why does it have to be so big? They want to scare away aliens?

Looks like a beautiful place, and the untouched rock was most likely quite spectacular and powerful looking in it's natural state.

But I guess that doesn't bring in the tourist $$.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Zimmer
Jul 6 2006, 09:41 PM
Dwain and 89th...

Some questions....

Are you two arguing simply that if individuals acted in a more Christian manner that the society would be better because there would be less people doing bad things? Or are you arguing that the societal laws and mores in general should be based on adherence to Christian values and that would reduce social ills?

Also, are you arguing that the evil in the society is being allowed if not encouraged or caused by God because of your preception that there is too much rejection of Christian morals? Or are you simply arguing that there are immoral people doing immoral things, hence there is too much evil being done in Amercia?

Finally, do you see such things as natural disasters and attacks on buildings by jet airlines as the result of God's reaction to what you percieve to be immorality in America?

"Are you two arguing simply that if individuals acted in a more Christian manner that the society would be better because there would be less people doing bad things?"

I'd agree with that, yes.

"Or are you arguing that the societal laws and mores in general should be based on adherence to Christian values and that would reduce social ills?"

I suppose one could argue that an imposed adherence to some subset of Christian values (as opposed to an actual desire to adhere to them that arises from within)might reduce certain societal ills, but I'd think that one could also argue that this is largely chasing one's own tail and can create other unintended ills. Personally, I believe that law should be something that springs from what the population considers proper and improper. If that results in a set of codified laws that vaguely resemble portions of Christian morality, so be it; if it results in codified law that doesn't look anything like Christianity, so be that as well. I don't advocate for adherence to a certain "code for living" as a legal issue, or for having it imposed on an unwilling populace who do not inwardly value those standards. I advocate it from the standpoint that society would have fewer ills if a greater portion of the population desried to adhere to those standards inwardly, as a result of their belief system. I do not value those components of my values system any less, and I do not actually live up to them any more or less, based on whether they're part of codified law.


"Also, are you arguing that the evil in the society is being allowed if not encouraged or caused by God because of your preception that there is too much rejection of Christian morals? "

I might as well point out right here that I think the question largely irrelevant, because we're not in a position to know its answer one way or the other; and as such, I don't spend a bunch of my time worrying about it. My own opinion, though, is that most, and maybe all, of such events are much like the trampoline example I gave earlier in this, or the other, thread. I believe that sin in the world causes its own tragedies, and the laws of nature cause meteorological events, without any need for any direct or further action (or lack of action) on God's part. I perceive much of the pain and suffering in this world to be caused by a complex, interrelated series of sin causing other sins, which carom off into other areas and in collision with other sin, cause yet different sins, all of which result in varying degrees of misery, pain, suffering, and injustice in the world.

I believe that if it must be framed as you've put the question, that God "allows" certain tragedies to occur, based on a number of theological ideas I won't elaborate here for the sake of brevity, but I don't believe that God "encourages" tragedy.

"Finally, do you see such things as natural disasters and attacks on buildings by jet airlines as the result of God's reaction to what you percieve to be immorality in America?"

Much of the answer to this lies in what I just said above. There's nothing inherently wrong in wondering about this question; it's fun to stretch understanding and imagination. But I think that excessively dwelling on it only distracts a person from more essential points, of more immediate importance, regarding our understanding of the divine-human relationship. I don't personally view these sorts of things in terms of the hand of God directly punishing people. But I do believe that regardless of their origin, there are lessons that we can learn from them, and that it is a legitimate exercise of one's faith to try to do exactly that.

On the other hand, I cannot deny that Judeo-Christian Scripture says that at least in some instances, God does become personally involved in historical human events - that God on certain occasions breaks the otherwise all-but-closed system of creation - in ways both punitive and beneficial. I certainly believe this is true. The most notable example of God's direct intervention in human history is the entire basis of our shared faith, God's own physical Incarnation in the person of Jesus Christ. So my faith must also allow for this possibility. But as I said before, whether this thing or that is, or is not, an example of direct divine intervention, blessing or punishment is a pretty silly thing to get overly worked up about. We'll never really knew about so much of that; all we can do is examine those things for what we can learn from them and move forward. There's so much more that we can be much more sure of, that we should focus on more.

What do you believe about these same questions? Does a society which adheres to Judeo-Christian (or for that matter, virtually any religious) ethic of proper living and relationship with God have fewer societal ills? Should any morality be legislated, and if any, how much, before it becomes counterproductive? Do we worship a God that cares about, and can, and does, in at least some times and places, directly intervene in human history? Do we worship a God that blesses and punishes in earthly existence?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Rick Zimmer
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Dewey
Jul 7 2006, 08:34 AM
What do you believe about these same questions? Does a society which adheres to Judeo-Christian (or for that matter, virtually any religious) ethic of proper living and relationship with God have fewer societal ills? Should any morality be legislated, and if any, how much, before it becomes counterproductive? Do we worship a God that cares about, and can, and does, in at least some times and places, directly intervene in human history? Do we worship a God that blesses and punishes in earthly existence?

You have backpeddled throughout this thread since I first challenged you, Dwain. While arguing here that this is all about how individuals act, this was not how you started. You started with a much broader statement linking the United States to Scriptural references of the New Israel.

While some are very quick to publicly judge other posters and characterize their comments, I will not do so with you. I will only point out how quickly you went from that linkage to saying that you are only talking about how individuals act. I leave it to you to judge yourself as to why you would link this country to a scripturally defined entity and then so quickly back away from that when challenged. But it makes it very hard to know what you really believe and how much of it you simply do not want to have to justify in a public forum where you are not preaching to the choir.

What do I think?

I think it is very clear that the New Testament speaks to the individual, calling the individual to holiness and to a personal relationship with God. I see nothing in the New Testament that speaks to political entities or how governments are to be run or how societies are to function. There is much, though, that speaks to how the individual is called to act in society, but nothing commanding (or even suggesting) that the individual impose his/her values on an entire society.

I also think that of all of the great religions of the world, Christianity should know better than any other what happens when religious authority and political authority are held in the same hands. We need only look to our own history to see the evils visite don those societies and the destruction of Christian values when this happens. When will we learn from our own tragic mistakes?

If we are too embarrassed to look at our own history, then we need only look to such contemporary examples as the Taliban in Afghanistan and the continued turmoil in Iraq caused by sectarian religious/political leaders linking their religious teachings with their lust for political power and encouraging their followers to attack and kill each other, all in the name of the God who loves each of us equally.

I think to argue that if every body did the right thing that the society would be better is so obvious on its face that it need not even be said; much less connected to religious values.

Do I believe there is a God who interacts with human beings? Yes, on a very personal individual level, not on a societal level.

And I do not believe that God places any more importance on the United States of America than He places on Great Britain, Germany, India, China, Ghana or any other political entity, contrary to the implication in your first post. (I know -- that's not really what you meant -- it's just what you wrote).

Indeed, I would argue he places no importance on any political entity, but rather places all importance and all responsibility on the individual to live his/her life in accordance with his/her understanding of God's will for them and expects them to do so no matter the society they live in or the government they live under.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 
And I do not believe that God places any more importance on the United States of America than He places on Great Britain, Germany, India, China, Ghana or any other political entity, contrary to the implication in your first post. (I know -- that's not really what you meant -- it's just what you wrote).

Indeed, I would argue he places no importance on any political entity, but rather places all importance and all responsibility on the individual to live his/her life in accordance with his/her understanding of God's will for them and expects them to do so no matter the society they live in or the government they live under.


That's not what God said....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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big al
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Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 10:28 AM
Quote:
 
And I do not believe that God places any more importance on the United States of America than He places on Great Britain, Germany, India, China, Ghana or any other political entity, contrary to the implication in your first post. (I know -- that's not really what you meant -- it's just what you wrote).

Indeed, I would argue he places no importance on any political entity, but rather places all importance and all responsibility on the individual to live his/her life in accordance with his/her understanding of God's will for them and expects them to do so no matter the society they live in or the government they live under.


That's not what God said....

With the exception of the Covenant with the Israelites, what other agreements has God made with a particular people or nation?

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
big al
Jul 7 2006, 10:33 AM
Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 10:28 AM
Quote:
 
And I do not believe that God places any more importance on the United States of America than He places on Great Britain, Germany, India, China, Ghana or any other political entity, contrary to the implication in your first post. (I know -- that's not really what you meant -- it's just what you wrote).

Indeed, I would argue he places no importance on any political entity, but rather places all importance and all responsibility on the individual to live his/her life in accordance with his/her understanding of God's will for them and expects them to do so no matter the society they live in or the government they live under.


That's not what God said....

With the exception of the Covenant with the Israelites, what other agreements has God made with a particular people or nation?

Big Al

edit

Whew, almost got sucked into a religion thread.
Whew
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
big al
Jul 7 2006, 12:33 PM
Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 10:28 AM
Quote:
 
And I do not believe that God places any more importance on the United States of America than He places on Great Britain, Germany, India, China, Ghana or any other political entity, contrary to the implication in your first post. (I know -- that's not really what you meant -- it's just what you wrote).

Indeed, I would argue he places no importance on any political entity, but rather places all importance and all responsibility on the individual to live his/her life in accordance with his/her understanding of God's will for them and expects them to do so no matter the society they live in or the government they live under.


That's not what God said....

With the exception of the Covenant with the Israelites, what other agreements has God made with a particular people or nation?

Big Al

Kinda where I was headed....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
If God really did do a deal with the Israelites, an examination of what has happened to them since might make one question the advantages that such a covenant bestows.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 12:48 PM
If God really did do a deal with the Israelites, an examination of what has happened to them since might make one question the advantages that such a covenant bestows.

Examine away.

Every time the nation turns against God, they suffer.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Rick Zimmer
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Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 11:51 AM
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 12:48 PM
If God really did do a deal with the Israelites, an examination of what has happened to them since might make one question the advantages that such a covenant bestows.

Examine away.

Every time the nation turns against God, they suffer.

Are you implying (perhaps even claiming) the same or a similar relationship between God and the United States as He had with the Israel of the Old Testament?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jul 7 2006, 12:57 PM
Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 11:51 AM
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 12:48 PM
If God really did do a deal with the Israelites, an examination of what has happened to them since might make one question the advantages that such a covenant bestows.

Examine away.

Every time the nation turns against God, they suffer.

Are you implying (perhaps even claiming) the same or a similar relationship between God and the United States as He had with the Israel of the Old Testament?

Ah, trying so hard to work the New Israel theory....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 02:51 PM
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 12:48 PM
If God really did do a deal with the Israelites, an examination of what has happened to them since might make one question the advantages that such a covenant bestows.

Examine away.

Every time the nation turns against God, they suffer.

They seem to suffer whichever direction they face.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 12:00 PM
Rick Zimmer
Jul 7 2006, 12:57 PM
Jolly
Jul 7 2006, 11:51 AM
John D'Oh
Jul 7 2006, 12:48 PM
If God really did do a deal with the Israelites, an examination of what has happened to them since might make one question the advantages that such a covenant bestows.

Examine away.

Every time the nation turns against God, they suffer.

Are you implying (perhaps even claiming) the same or a similar relationship between God and the United States as He had with the Israel of the Old Testament?

Ah, trying so hard to work the New Israel theory....

Want to answer the question, Jolly?

I am not the one who made the parallel. Dwain is.

I rejected it. He backed down from clarified his position.

Do you accept the parallel -- or something like it -- or do your reject it?

Do you think God has a relationship with the United States of America the same as or similar to the one He had with the Israel of the Old Testament.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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