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Anti-gay violence
Topic Started: Jun 16 2006, 04:28 AM (1,200 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 09:54 AM

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Quote:
 
You start a thread on the Senate taking up its time to debate a Consitutional Amendment to stop flag burning and clearly indicate your support.  I have to assume that your support for the Senate spending its time on this is because you think it is a front burner issue that they should deal with with rather than other pressing issues.


Flag burning? Yes, I think it speaks to core values, pride in my country and pride in its symbols. I also think - in a more cynical vein - that it IS a winning issue in the red states. In an off-year election you turn out the base. This is an issue that can do that.

I think one of the most important things the Senate can do for the country is to keep people you would like to see in office, out of office.

Quote:
 
Then you start a thread about one incident in Massacusetts when a child is attacked by classmates because of the parents opposition to teaching children about homosexuality.  I assume you view this as an important issue because you found this significant enough to bring to our attention.


I surely do. I think it points out the hypocrisy and the absolute viciousness of the "Culture of Tolerance" of the Left.

You ain't tolerant, bub. The Left just wants what it wants, and it'll dress up the argument in whatever sequined gown it thinks will work. And if stymied will resort to any level to propogate that view.

Even kicking first graders. Those kids didn't pick up their attitudes from Sesame Street, and Big Bird doesn't teach you how to put the boots to 'em when they're down.

Quote:
 
But then a thread is started about the extent of gay bashing and you immediately challenge the statistics and end up saying you do not find gay bashing to be a front burner issue


All the talk about gay bashing is an agenda. It does not happen nearly as much as some would have us believe. It is an attempt by some to define a national conversation, to engender sympathy, and promote societal change. IMNSHO, much of the that societal change is not good for the family, or for Americans at large.

If one backs up and looks at the problems facing society today, I would place immigration and fiscal policy much higher on the list. But I know the people you would back do not consider those to be important issues - they are much more worried that Iraq could conceivably be a success and they will still be on the outside looking in.

And I simply do not want the Hate America First crowd walking the halls of power.

Perhaps that is what drives the things that I talk about....

Wow!
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Matt G.
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Middle Aged Carp
Speaking of painting, the hallway needs a fresh coat, since your brush is far, far wider than mine.

I have seen anti-gay violence and intimidation up close. It is a real problem, far more common off the rural route than some are capable of imagining, and there IS significant targeting of gay people. If I get indignant about callous disregard for what really happens, you can chalk that up to my believing that nobody should be targeted for violence or intimidation just because of their sexual preference. If that's an agenda, sign me up!
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
So we don't need to worry when a gay man is beaten to death, but when a few 10 year-old schoolboys give someone a bit of a slap it's THE END OF CIVILISATION AS WE KNOW IT.

Since gay marriage has been made legal in the UK, there's no need for a gay agenda anymore, which should put a stop to the reporting of this kind of murder, which I'm sure will be a great relief to all of us. Like they say, no news is good news.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 10:00 AM
ivorythumper
Jun 16 2006, 12:08 PM
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 08:51 AM
Every hate crime is wrong.

Wrong, 89th. Every hate crime is wrong.

Every crime is wrong legally, not every crime is wrong morally.

However, every HATE crime is wrong, legally AND morally.

You are obviously a legal positivist.

A citizen has a moral obligation to uphold the laws of the land, provided that they are lawfully enacted and do not contravene human reason (such as turning in your neighbor to the authorities for being Jewish). So, with that in mind, give me an example of a case where it is not morally wrong to commit a crime. The begger stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family? It is still morally wrong but the culpability is diminished.

In case you missed it, I disallow the notion of hate crime per se. Hate itself is not morally wrong. Apart from Christian notions of forgiveness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, etc, hate is a natural response (a passion, or a movement of the sense appetite) toward a perceived evil. We intrinsically hate bankruptcy or starvation or threats to our wellbeing or injustices. The question of "hate" as a modifier for criminal behavior, if one is being consistent, ought to be like any other "crime of passion" -- and serve to mitigate culpability instead of exacerbate culpability.

My disagreement with you about "hate" is that it is bad thinking to ascribe hate as a modifier to crime since it is entirely unnecessary. All crime is wrong -- whether legally or morally. That is all that needs to be said. Beyond that you are talking politics, not morality and not jurisprudence.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Matt G.
Jun 16 2006, 12:06 PM
Speaking of painting, the hallway needs a fresh coat, since your brush is far, far wider than mine.

I have seen anti-gay violence and intimidation up close. It is a real problem, far more common off the rural route than some are capable of imagining, and there IS significant targeting of gay people. If I get indignant about callous disregard for what really happens, you can chalk that up to my believing that nobody should be targeted for violence or intimidation just because of their sexual preference. If that's an agenda, sign me up!

Broad brush? No.

Broad view? Yes.

I've not denied that gays can be singled out for violence and criminal acts - it happens.

But it happens a lot more to women, to the elderly, to children.

Perspective. Take care of bigger problems first.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:07 PM
So we don't need to worry when a gay man is beaten to death, but when a few 10 year-old schoolboys give someone a bit of a slap it's THE END OF CIVILISATION AS WE KNOW IT.

Since gay marriage has been made legal in the UK, there's no need for a gay agenda anymore, which should put a stop to the reporting of this kind of murder, which I'm sure will be a great relief to all of us. Like they say, no news is good news.

A young man was beaten to death.

Truly sad and regrettable.

But there were 1,184,702 violent crimes in Britian that year, and 14.6% of all males 16-24 were victims!

Do you think every one of those young men are gay?

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Matt G.
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Middle Aged Carp
When was the last time someone was beaten to death because she was a woman? Are people being threatened and intimidated because they are elderly? Is there a ministry out there with the catchphrase of "God Hates Kids"?

Get real.

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 02:22 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:07 PM
So we don't need to worry when a gay man is beaten to death, but when a few 10 year-old schoolboys give someone a bit of a slap it's THE END OF CIVILISATION AS WE KNOW IT.

Since gay marriage has been made legal in the UK, there's no need for a gay agenda anymore, which should put a stop to the reporting of this kind of murder, which I'm sure will be a great relief to all of us. Like they say, no news is good news.

A young man was beaten to death.

Truly sad and regrettable.

But there were 1,184,702 violent crimes in Britian that year, and 14.6% of all males 16-24 were victims!

Do you think every one of those young men are gay?

How many schoolboys do you suppose got smacked around a bit in Massachusetts last year?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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Women, children, white men, black men....there's far more hate-violence directed at these groups than gays, but like I said before any crimes based on hate are wrong.
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The 89th Key
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Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 02:22 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:07 PM
So we don't need to worry when a gay man is beaten to death, but when a few 10 year-old schoolboys give someone a bit of a slap it's THE END OF CIVILISATION AS WE KNOW IT.

Since gay marriage has been made legal in the UK, there's no need for a gay agenda anymore, which should put a stop to the reporting of this kind of murder, which I'm sure will be a great relief to all of us. Like they say, no news is good news.

A young man was beaten to death.

Truly sad and regrettable.

But there were 1,184,702 violent crimes in Britian that year, and 14.6% of all males 16-24 were victims!

Do you think every one of those young men are gay?

Going back to what Ivory and Jolly mention...WHO CARES if the victim was gay.

A violent crime is a violent crime.

PERIOD.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:23 PM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 02:22 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:07 PM
So we don't need to worry when a gay man is beaten to death, but when a few 10 year-old schoolboys give someone a bit of a slap it's THE END OF CIVILISATION AS WE KNOW IT.

Since gay marriage has been made legal in the UK, there's no need for a gay agenda anymore, which should put a stop to the reporting of this kind of murder, which I'm sure will be a great relief to all of us. Like they say, no news is good news.

A young man was beaten to death.

Truly sad and regrettable.

But there were 1,184,702 violent crimes in Britian that year, and 14.6% of all males 16-24 were victims!

Do you think every one of those young men are gay?

How many schoolboys do you suppose got smacked around a bit in Massachusetts last year?

Quite a few, I would imagine.

I take it you therefore condone some being beaten under some conditions, but not others?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Matt G.
Jun 16 2006, 12:22 PM
When was the last time someone was beaten to death because she was a woman? Are people being threatened and intimidated because they are elderly? Is there a ministry out there with the catchphrase of "God Hates Kids"?

Get real.

Women are beaten to death with the regularity of clockwork all around the world.

Elderly people are abused by the multitudes every day.

You deny these things happen more to these groups, than others?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 02:31 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:23 PM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 02:22 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:07 PM
So we don't need to worry when a gay man is beaten to death, but when a few 10 year-old schoolboys give someone a bit of a slap it's THE END OF CIVILISATION AS WE KNOW IT.

Since gay marriage has been made legal in the UK, there's no need for a gay agenda anymore, which should put a stop to the reporting of this kind of murder, which I'm sure will be a great relief to all of us. Like they say, no news is good news.

A young man was beaten to death.

Truly sad and regrettable.

But there were 1,184,702 violent crimes in Britian that year, and 14.6% of all males 16-24 were victims!

Do you think every one of those young men are gay?

How many schoolboys do you suppose got smacked around a bit in Massachusetts last year?

Quite a few, I would imagine.

I take it you therefore condone some being beaten under some conditions, but not others?

Of course not. Why the big fuss over the one guy in yesterday's thread, though?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 02:29 PM

Going back to what Ivory and Jolly mention...WHO CARES if the victim was gay.

The two men who beat him to death did.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:36 PM
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 02:29 PM

Going back to what Ivory and Jolly mention...WHO CARES if the victim was gay.

The two men who beat him to death did.

Then maybe we hang him twice.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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The 89th Key
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Quote:
 
The two men who beat him to death did.


And?

EDIT: How does that affect the result or punishment of the crime?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 09:54 AM


I surely do. I think it points out the hypocrisy and the absolute viciousness of the "Culture of Tolerance" of the Left.

You ain't tolerant, bub. The Left just wants what it wants, and it'll dress up the argument in whatever sequined gown it thinks will work. And if stymied will resort to any level to propogate that view.


I may be a young whippersnapper, but I can admit that BOTH sides are not always tolerant and dress up arguements to get whatever they want. It's politics, bub. Not just the Left.


(I like the sequin gown analogy, btw)
And how are you today?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 11:36 AM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:36 PM
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 02:29 PM

Going back to what Ivory and Jolly mention...WHO CARES if the victim was gay.

The two men who beat him to death did.

Then maybe we hang him twice.

Since murder is already a capital offence, maybe what John is really getting at is reinstituting cruel and unusual punishment for certain privileged classes of crimes. :shrug:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 10:12 AM


Perspective. Take care of bigger problems first.

Good idea. I agree.

BUT...(duhm duhm DUHM!)....why not stop the "small" things before they get to be big? Or try to, at least. Nip it in the bud, so to say.
And how are you today?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Matt G.
Jun 16 2006, 10:22 AM
When was the last time someone was beaten to death because she was a woman?

Probably a few hours or minutes ago.
And how are you today?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
LWpianistin
Jun 16 2006, 11:39 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 09:54 AM


I surely do. I think it points out the hypocrisy and the absolute viciousness of the "Culture of Tolerance" of the Left.

You ain't tolerant, bub. The Left just wants what it wants, and it'll dress up the argument in whatever sequined gown it thinks will work. And if stymied will resort to any level to propogate that view.


I may be a young whippersnapper, but I can admit that BOTH sides are not always tolerant and dress up arguements to get whatever they want. It's politics, bub. Not just the Left.


(I like the sequin gown analogy, btw)

Perhaps, but at least the Right is not hypocritical about it. They are happy to state that they are intolerant of certain things, and don't hide behind the thin veneer of "tolerance" while encouraging their kids to go beat up the children of those who disagree with them. :wink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Oh no. The Right is hypocritical too. That's my point. Both are just as bad as eachother. That's all there is to it. And what if the parents of the bully kids just happened to be Republicans? It can happen. OMG! A GAY REPUBLICAN!

NEVER!
And how are you today?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
LWpianistin
Jun 16 2006, 11:50 AM
Oh no. The Right is hypocritical too. That's my point. Both are just as bad as eachother. That's all there is to it.

Where do you hear of the Right espousing tolerance and then being intolerant?

They might be hypocritical about other things (lowering taxes, etc), but what do you have in mind?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jun 16 2006, 10:53 AM
LWpianistin
Jun 16 2006, 11:50 AM
Oh no. The Right is hypocritical too. That's my point. Both are just as bad as eachother. That's all there is to it.

Where do you hear of the Right espousing tolerance and then being intolerant?

They might be hypocritical about other things (lowering taxes, etc), but what do you have in mind?

Just that BOTH are hypocritical, and these 'The Left is bad because it's hypocritcal' "arguements" are pointless, as are "The Right is bad because it's led by Bush" or similar. :rolleyes: :yawn:

And how are you today?
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Matt G.
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Middle Aged Carp
LWpianistin
Jun 16 2006, 01:45 PM
Matt G.
Jun 16 2006, 10:22 AM
When was the last time someone was beaten to death because she was a woman?

Probably a few hours or minutes ago.

In the sense of "Let's go out and kick some woman's ass!" "Yeah, f***in' women deserve to die!"? Really?

Heck, I've been invited to "go kick some faggot ass" more times than care to recall.
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