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Anti-gay violence
Topic Started: Jun 16 2006, 04:28 AM (1,201 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
[Just plain annoying mode]

I said 'not necessarily, every crime is against the law.' I then said 'legal things can also be wrong'. They were intended to be separate statements. Not all crimes are necessarily wrong, particularly in benighted countries with very bad leaders.

[Doubleplusannoyingmode]

IT, you said 89 was wrong, whereas he actually wasn't, since hate crime is a subset of crime. If all crime is wrong, by inference all hate crime is also wrong.

[Back to just being regular annoying]

These brackets get annoying after a while.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
No such thing as a hate crime -- that is an artificial category to politically privilege certain crimes. Just enforce laws against murder and battery as they stand.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Jun 16 2006, 12:34 PM
No such thing as a hate crime -- that is an artificial category to politically privilege certain crimes. Just enforce laws against murder and battery as they stand.

I believe crime caused by irrational hatred deserves to be categorised for the purposes of discussion, and hate-crime is a useful term to describe this. I agree that the legal system doesn't really need to sub-divide, other than when determining a motive for the behaviour.

Hatred may not be a crime, but it is wrong, after all. In my opinion it's a much bigger sin than many other foibles which seem to exercise our outrage.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
An editorial on the Canadian Hate Crime laws:

Abolish Foolish Law: Canada has real hate crimes to worry about

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Nina
Senior Carp
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 09:38 AM
Hatred may not be a crime, but it is wrong, after all. In my opinion it's a much bigger sin than many other foibles which seem to exercise our outrage.

Yeah, like married gay flag-burners. :sword: I hate them!
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
So a carload of teenagers goes into the city. They drink, they party, they run out of money.

They decide to pick someone off of the street to "roll". The person they happen to pick is gay.

The statistics then are trotted out to prove that the reason the victim was attacked, was because of his sexual preference. Of course, the satistics given didn't take into account he was wearing an Armani suit, and had just stepped out a BMW.

Or that 10 times as many prostitutes in the city were assaulted that night, or that 27 drug arrests were made, mostly in the seedier side of town.

So now we have 10 prostitutes assaulted, 27 drug arrests, and 1 gay guy mugged, who the perps weren't even aware that he was gay.

Yep, sounds like a homophobic crime wave to me....

Perspective, people. Perspective.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
ivorythumper
Jun 16 2006, 10:34 AM
No such thing as a hate crime -- that is an artificial category to politically privilege certain crimes. Just enforce laws against murder and battery as they stand.

Agreed.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 11:44 AM
So a carload of teenagers goes into the city. They drink, they party, they run out of money.

They decide to pick someone off of the street to "roll". The person they happen to pick is gay.

The statistics then are trotted out to prove that the reason the victim was attacked, was because of his sexual preference. Of course, the satistics given didn't take into account he was wearing an Armani suit, and had just stepped out a BMW.

Or that 10 times as many prostitutes in the city were assaulted that night, or that 27 drug arrests were made, mostly in the seedier side of town.

So now we have 10 prostitutes assaulted, 27 drug arrests, and 1 gay guy mugged, who the perps weren't even aware that he was gay.

Yep, sounds like a homophobic crime wave to me....

Perspective, people. Perspective.

We need a jihad against teenagers.
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Nina
Jun 16 2006, 12:41 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 09:38 AM
Hatred may not be a crime, but it is wrong, after all. In my opinion it's a much bigger sin than many other foibles which seem to exercise our outrage.

Yeah, like married gay flag-burners. :sword: I hate them!

At school I always hated bunsen-burners. My teachers were not big believers in this form of self-expression, and forced me to use them, which caused me much emotional scarring. In the end of course, justice was done, and Mr. Ogilvy the chemistry teacher never looked the same without his hair. He was apparently attacked late at night by someone carrying a flaming sword, and shouting 'Repent, you Godless worshipper of sulfuric, mine vengeance is most terrible!'. The police didn't rule out heavenly intervention, but a comment was made during the re-trial that they doubted the Archangel Gabriel smelt strongly of propane, and they believed it unlikely that he had a Lancashire accent.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 08:44 AM
So a carload of teenagers goes into the city. They drink, they party, they run out of money.

They decide to pick someone off of the street to "roll". The person they happen to pick is gay.

The statistics then are trotted out to prove that the reason the victim was attacked, was because of his sexual preference. Of course, the satistics given didn't take into account he was wearing an Armani suit, and had just stepped out a BMW.

Or that 10 times as many prostitutes in the city were assaulted that night, or that 27 drug arrests were made, mostly in the seedier side of town.

So now we have 10 prostitutes assaulted, 27 drug arrests, and 1 gay guy mugged, who the perps weren't even aware that he was gay.

Yep, sounds like a homophobic crime wave to me....

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Nice story, Jolly.

Are you honestly arguing that there is not a significant number of attacks on gays simply because they are gay?

That most of the reports of attacks on gays are nothing more than random attacks on a human being, who later is found to be gay?

Is this really what you are saying?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
Jun 16 2006, 12:08 PM
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 08:51 AM
Every hate crime is wrong.

Wrong, 89th. Every hate crime is wrong.

Every crime is wrong legally, not every crime is wrong morally.

However, every HATE crime is wrong, legally AND morally.
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Nina
Senior Carp
No, I think Jolly is saying that teenagers are selecting Armani-wearing BMW-driving people to beat up for what I assume are socioeconomic reasons.

And unfortunately, if you wear Armani and drive a BMW, you must be gay. Unhappy circumstance only.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 10:58 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 08:44 AM
So a carload of teenagers goes into the city. They drink, they party, they run out of money.

They decide to pick someone off of the street to "roll". The person they happen to pick is gay.

The statistics then are trotted out to prove that the reason the victim was attacked, was because of his sexual preference. Of course, the satistics given didn't take into account he was wearing an Armani suit, and had just stepped out a BMW.

Or that 10 times as many prostitutes in the city were assaulted that night, or that 27 drug arrests were made, mostly in the seedier side of town.

So now we have 10 prostitutes assaulted, 27 drug arrests, and 1 gay guy mugged, who the perps weren't even aware that he was gay.

Yep, sounds like a homophobic crime wave to me....

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Nice story, Jolly.

Are you honestly arguing that there is not a significant number of attacks on gays simply because they are gay?

That most of the reports of attacks on gays are nothing more than random attacks on a human being, who later is found to be gay?

Is this really what you are saying?

Define significant.

Compared to the rest of the population, no, I don't think straight-on-gay crime simply because of sexual orientation is a front burner problem. I think it is more isolated than not, and news when it happens.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 08:50 AM
At school I always hated bunsen-burners. My teachers were not big believers in this form of self-expression, and forced me to use them, which caused me much emotional scarring.

Who could possibly hate Dr. Bunsen Honeydew enough to want to burn him?


Posted Image
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
AlbertaCrude
Jun 16 2006, 12:19 PM
Who could possibly hate Dr. Bunsen Honeydew enough to want to burn him?


Posted Image

Beaker, of course.

Posted Image
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Damn, I hijacked my own thread, which now descends into jokes most silly. I'm genetically incapable of keeping a straight face for more than one page of posts.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:24 PM
Damn, I hijacked my own thread, which now descends into jokes most silly. I'm genetically incapable of keeping a straight face for more than one page of posts.

Someone should inform a moderator.
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 09:05 AM
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 10:58 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 08:44 AM
So a carload of teenagers goes into the city. They drink, they party, they run out of money.

They decide to pick someone off of the street to "roll". The person they happen to pick is gay.

The statistics then are trotted out to prove that the reason the victim was attacked, was because of his sexual preference. Of course, the satistics given didn't take into account he was wearing an Armani suit, and had just stepped out a BMW.

Or that 10 times as many prostitutes in the city were assaulted that night, or that 27 drug arrests were made, mostly in the seedier side of town.

So now we have 10 prostitutes assaulted, 27 drug arrests, and 1 gay guy mugged, who the perps weren't even aware that he was gay.

Yep, sounds like a homophobic crime wave to me....

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Nice story, Jolly.

Are you honestly arguing that there is not a significant number of attacks on gays simply because they are gay?

That most of the reports of attacks on gays are nothing more than random attacks on a human being, who later is found to be gay?

Is this really what you are saying?

Define significant.

Compared to the rest of the population, no, I don't think straight-on-gay crime simply because of sexual orientation is a front burner problem. I think it is more isolated than not, and news when it happens.

I guess I should stop being surprised at your view of things, much less what you think are significant issues for our society, Jolly.

If we consider a few of the threads you have started and commented on in the last couple of days, we can learn a lot about what you think is important and needs to be dealt with and what you think can simply be swept under the rug as not being a front burner issue.

You start a thread on the Senate taking up its time to debate a Consitutional Amendment to stop flag burning and clearly indicate your support. I have to assume that your support for the Senate spending its time on this is because you think it is a front burner issue that they should deal with with rather than other pressing issues.

Then you start a thread about one incident in Massacusetts when a child is attacked by classmates because of the parents opposition to teaching children about homosexuality. I assume you view this as an important issue because you found this significant enough to bring to our attention.

But then a thread is started about the extent of gay bashing and you immediately challenge the statistics and end up saying you do not find gay bashing to be a front burner issue.

Fascinating.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
kentcouncil
Jun 16 2006, 01:26 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:24 PM
Damn, I hijacked my own thread, which now descends into jokes most silly. I'm genetically incapable of keeping a straight face for more than one page of posts.

Someone should inform a moderator.

Those guys don't know wosname from Shinola.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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tcmod
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Senior Carp
too bad the homosexuals over there can't have guns.

(insert gun control thread here)
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 09:24 AM
Damn, I hijacked my own thread, which now descends into jokes most silly. I'm genetically incapable of keeping a straight face for more than one page of posts.

C'mon John, straighten your pencils and adjust your headgear, you're beginning to look a bit slovenly.
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 01:28 PM
kentcouncil
Jun 16 2006, 01:26 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 16 2006, 12:24 PM
Damn, I hijacked my own thread, which now descends into jokes most silly. I'm genetically incapable of keeping a straight face for more than one page of posts.

Someone should inform a moderator.

Those guys don't know wosname from Shinola.

Plus I don't think they've even seen this thread. What n00bs.
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Matt G.
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Middle Aged Carp
Yeah, there's no real significance to the spray-painting of "C**K LOVERS" on the side of a house in my neighborhood. Or when someone stomped the word "GAY" into the snow in their front yard. They were being targeted only because the kids needed some spending money, not because they were gay. :doh:
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Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 11:28 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 09:05 AM
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 10:58 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 08:44 AM
So a carload of teenagers goes into the city. They drink, they party, they run out of money.

They decide to pick someone off of the street to "roll". The person they happen to pick is gay.

The statistics then are trotted out to prove that the reason the victim was attacked, was because of his sexual preference. Of course, the satistics given didn't take into account he was wearing an Armani suit, and had just stepped out a BMW.

Or that 10 times as many prostitutes in the city were assaulted that night, or that 27 drug arrests were made, mostly in the seedier side of town.

So now we have 10 prostitutes assaulted, 27 drug arrests, and 1 gay guy mugged, who the perps weren't even aware that he was gay.

Yep, sounds like a homophobic crime wave to me....

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Nice story, Jolly.

Are you honestly arguing that there is not a significant number of attacks on gays simply because they are gay?

That most of the reports of attacks on gays are nothing more than random attacks on a human being, who later is found to be gay?

Is this really what you are saying?

Define significant.

Compared to the rest of the population, no, I don't think straight-on-gay crime simply because of sexual orientation is a front burner problem. I think it is more isolated than not, and news when it happens.

I guess I should stop being surprised at your view of things, much less what you think are significant issues for our society, Jolly.

If we consider a few of the threads you have started and commented on in the last couple of days, we can learn a lot about what you think is important and needs to be dealt with and what you think can simply be swept under the rug as not being a front burner issue.

You start a thread on the Senate taking up its time to debate a Consitutional Amendment to stop flag burning and clearly indicate your support. I have to assume that your support for the Senate spending its time on this is because you think it is a front burner issue that they should deal with with rather than other pressing issues.

Then you start a thread about one incident in Massacusetts when a child is attacked by classmates because of the parents opposition to teaching children about homosexuality. I assume you view this as an important issue because you found this significant enough to bring to our attention.

But then a thread is started about the extent of gay bashing and you immediately challenge the statistics and end up saying you do not find gay bashing to be a front burner issue.

Fascinating.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Quote:
 
You start a thread on the Senate taking up its time to debate a Consitutional Amendment to stop flag burning and clearly indicate your support.  I have to assume that your support for the Senate spending its time on this is because you think it is a front burner issue that they should deal with with rather than other pressing issues.


Flag burning? Yes, I think it speaks to core values, pride in my country and pride in its symbols. I also think - in a more cynical vein - that it IS a winning issue in the red states. In an off-year election you turn out the base. This is an issue that can do that.

I think one of the most important things the Senate can do for the country is to keep people you would like to see in office, out of office.

Quote:
 
Then you start a thread about one incident in Massacusetts when a child is attacked by classmates because of the parents opposition to teaching children about homosexuality.  I assume you view this as an important issue because you found this significant enough to bring to our attention.


I surely do. I think it points out the hypocrisy and the absolute viciousness of the "Culture of Tolerance" of the Left.

You ain't tolerant, bub. The Left just wants what it wants, and it'll dress up the argument in whatever sequined gown it thinks will work. And if stymied will resort to any level to propogate that view.

Even kicking first graders. Those kids didn't pick up their attitudes from Sesame Street, and Big Bird doesn't teach you how to put the boots to 'em when they're down.

Quote:
 
But then a thread is started about the extent of gay bashing and you immediately challenge the statistics and end up saying you do not find gay bashing to be a front burner issue


All the talk about gay bashing is an agenda. It does not happen nearly as much as some would have us believe. It is an attempt by some to define a national conversation, to engender sympathy, and promote societal change. IMNSHO, much of the that societal change is not good for the family, or for Americans at large.

If one backs up and looks at the problems facing society today, I would place immigration and fiscal policy much higher on the list. But I know the people you would back do not consider those to be important issues - they are much more worried that Iraq could conceivably be a success and they will still be on the outside looking in.

And I simply do not want the Hate America First crowd walking the halls of power.

Perhaps that is what drives the things that I talk about....





The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Matt G.
Jun 16 2006, 11:48 AM
Yeah, there's no real significance to the spray-painting of "C**K LOVERS" on the side of a house in my neighborhood. Or when someone stomped the word "GAY" into the snow in their front yard. They were being targeted only because the kids needed some spending money, not because they were gay. :doh:

While you're painting, please redo my mailbox, since it was vandalized the other night.

Think you can do that, even if I'm not gay?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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