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| Anti-gay violence | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 16 2006, 04:28 AM (1,197 Views) | |
| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 04:28 AM Post #1 |
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MAMIL
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I apologise for posting yet another gay thread, but it's worth remembering that this kind of thing goes on everywhere when looking at stories such as the recent one in the Massachusetts school. 1306 British homophobic crimes reported in a year is not a very happy statistic. Think of all the crimes that weren't reported. Gay killing 'tip of the iceberg;
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Jolly | Jun 16 2006, 05:29 AM Post #2 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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And what was the rate of non-homsexual violence? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 05:33 AM Post #3 |
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MAMIL
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What, you mean gays beating up heterosexuals because of their sexual preference? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Jolly | Jun 16 2006, 05:54 AM Post #4 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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No, crime rate in general. I can take 6 months of crime statistics from any state, highlight some of the data and not all, and make things appear as they are not. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| LWpianistin | Jun 16 2006, 06:52 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But homosexual crime singles someone out simply because they are gay. Most crimes that occur don't single out a group of people like that. 1306 anti-gay crimes is 1306 too many. Simple as that. But, then, any crime in the world is another that is unnecessary. |
| And how are you today? | |
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| John Jacob Jingoism Smith | Jun 16 2006, 06:54 AM Post #6 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Jolly, While it is certainly true that statistics can be misused, misconstrued or otherwise misunderstood, what is your point in bringing that up in this subject? Are you implying that homophobic attacks don't actually happen very often, or that we should ignore any statistics given on the subject and just let it slide, or what? Sincerely, JJJS |
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Jingoism You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jun 16 2006, 06:59 AM Post #7 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Why are you making this a debate about crime statistics, Jolly? Isn't you immediate reaction, implying that John is trying to make a problem look worse than it is, a bit disengenuous? Especially after posting about only one instance about violence against a child because the parents opposed teaching acceptance of gays. John's point is obviously one we all know is the case -- there are hundreds if not thousands of attacks on gays for just being gay each year. Or do you dispute that violence against gays simply because of their sexuality is a too frequent occurence? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 07:00 AM Post #8 |
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MAMIL
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Yes, you can. But there's different types of crime. My point in posting this was to demonstrate that in the UK at least, anti-gay hatred is a serious issue. The exact numbers are actually irrelevant. One person murdered solely because they happen to be attracted to members of the opposite sex is one too many. I'm just pulling this out of my a$s, but I'm pretty sure that a lot more people get beaten up for being gay than are beaten up for being straight. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 16 2006, 07:03 AM Post #9 |
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If you're pulling it out of your a$s, then I think you're biased.
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 07:05 AM Post #10 |
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MAMIL
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As a follow up, if we want to talk about crime in general, the next time someone posts something about some muslim extremist doing something stupid, I'll point out that there's lots of general crime going on, so muslim extremism isn't a problem at all, right? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| LWpianistin | Jun 16 2006, 07:06 AM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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| And how are you today? | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 16 2006, 07:07 AM Post #12 |
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John, your post was interesting, I think Jolly is just trying to point out...for example as I'm thinking about it....that the number of crimes against people because they are white, or black, etc...are probably 20x that because of sexual preference. |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 07:13 AM Post #13 |
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MAMIL
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So does that mean there's no homophobia problem? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 16 2006, 07:15 AM Post #14 |
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How did you infer that? |
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| phykell | Jun 16 2006, 07:19 AM Post #15 |
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Senior Carp
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Coincidentally I'd just read the BBC article on this disgusting crime and the statistics are shocking on their own. Sorry Jolly and 89th, but considering the statistics for "racial violence" or the frankly irrelevant metrics for "non-homosexual violence" doesn't diminish the seriousness of the crime in question and nor does it diminish the UK's shameful statistics on this type of crime. |
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself. Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 07:20 AM Post #16 |
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MAMIL
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I didn't, I just asked a question. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jun 16 2006, 07:20 AM Post #17 |
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Fulla-Carp
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That could well be. And the amount of violence against children whose parents oppose teaching tolerance towards gay in children is virtually statistically negligible -- but Jolly found it worthwhile enough to start and entire thread about one instance he found. The question I and others have raised, Isaac, is why he started that thread and then suddenly jumps on John for starting this one by wanting to argue (or implying he wants to argue) how many gay bashings there really are. This is really a question for Jolly -- at least on my part. I want to understand his motivation for apparently wanting to minimize the amount of anti-gay violence, in light of his other thread. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 16 2006, 07:32 AM Post #18 |
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So, you think homophobic crimes are ok? (Hey, I'm just asking a question) ![]() Seriously though, I'll answer your question: No. |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 16 2006, 07:51 AM Post #19 |
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Every hate crime is wrong. |
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| FrankM | Jun 16 2006, 07:53 AM Post #20 |
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Senior Carp
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I think Jolly's point is violence and bigotry are endemic to our species. That is, many people "naturally" act or react violently against those that offend them in some way. Further, people often act or react negatively to those who offend them just because they're perceived to be different than the "norm." And so often the "negative" action/reaction triggered by bigotry is a violent one. So why then single out violent antigay behavior? Are peoples' bigotry and violence towards gays different in some notable way from that towards those subjectively "abnormal" in other ways, such as racially? I don't think so. For example, claiming a difference due to the all-too-familiar religious basis for being anti-gay misses the underlying historical reason for the religious proscription: once again, natural bigotry against that which is "abnormal." Recall that many of the people in the US who are anti-gay come from the same culture that once officially proscribed racial intermarriage based on religious grounds. |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 16 2006, 08:08 AM Post #21 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Wrong, 89th. Every |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2006, 08:12 AM Post #22 |
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MAMIL
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[Annoying pedant mode] Not necessarily. Every crime is against the law. Some people claim that any number of things which are legal are also wrong. [/Annoying pedant mode] |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 16 2006, 08:18 AM Post #23 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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[annoying pedant stomper mode] You have not disproven my statement -- all you have argued is that there are ALSO things that are not crimes that are also wrong.[/annoying pedant stomper mode] |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| DivaDeb | Jun 16 2006, 08:22 AM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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[more pedanticly annoying than John Mode] Saying that legal things can also be wrong does not negate the idea that all illegal things are wrong. I might take more issue with the idea that all crimes are wrong actually. The commision of a crime is always wrong, but some acts listed in our legal code as criminal I would argue are not "wrong", not in the moral sense anyway. [/more pedanticly annoying than John Mode] |
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| phykell | Jun 16 2006, 08:27 AM Post #25 |
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Senior Carp
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The reason it's worth singling out is the approach of "divide and conquer". If we wrapped up all crime into one neat little package, a black box if you will, it would be unassailable. Conversely if we examine all types of crime in-depth we might find some can be explained, understood, dealt with and perhaps even prevented. It serves little or no practical purpose to lump anti-gay crime or racial crime, or any other crime for that matter, in with the rest of crime as a whole. |
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself. Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars | |
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