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One Vote
Topic Started: Jun 15 2006, 12:31 PM (1,047 Views)
OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Larry
Jun 15 2006, 08:04 PM
Get the flag issue out of the way - I think it's a dumb idea too.

Hey Larry, do we agree?!

:D



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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 15 2006, 12:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag-burning_amendment

Sources tell me that the heads have been counted, and the amendment may fall one vote short, or not, in the Senate. It is very, very close.

Rick could soon have a new consitutional amendment to bemoan....

Not a chance, Jolly. As has been pointed out before when discussing Amendments, 2/3's of the states need to ratify it -- 34 states. Unless one is Nebraska, that is 68 legislative bodies. If nebraska is onme, then it is 67 legislative bodies. In some of these States, a super majority is required as it is in The Congress. In others, the Governor also must sign it, which is another hurdle.

With a country at war, with intense debates about civil liberties going on, with our children not learning as they should, with concern about the environment, with terrorists at our doorstep, with the country needing to be secure, with FEMA and other emergency agencies not ready for the coming hurricane season, we are feted to the sight of our nation's Senate spending its time debating gay marriage (a couple of weeks ago) and now flag burning.

Am I missing something about priorities?

This is just more of the GOP's need to activate their base by dealing with issues which have no impact whatsoever on the real issues we are faced with. It is also an attempot by Dr. "I can diagnose PVS from a video tape" Frist burnishing his image for his run for the White House.

Nope, Jolly. I am not worried about having a Constitutional Amendment to moan about. This is just politics at its pandering best -- and from what it sound like, there are some in this coutnry who prefer pandering to true governing.

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' - Samuel Johnson

This is a wonderful example of the truth of this statement.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 15 2006, 11:56 PM
Jolly
Jun 15 2006, 12:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag-burning_amendment

Sources tell me that the heads have been counted, and the amendment may fall one vote short, or not, in the Senate. It is very, very close.

Rick could soon have a new consitutional amendment to bemoan....

Not a chance, Jolly. As has been pointed out before when discussing Amendments, 2/3's of the states need to ratify it -- 34 states. Unless one is Nebraska, that is 68 legislative bodies. If nebraska is onme, then it is 67 legislative bodies. In some of these States, a super majority is required as it is in The Congress. In others, the Governor also must sign it, which is another hurdle.

With a country at war, with intense debates about civil liberties going on, with our children not learning as they should, with concern about the environment, with terrorists at our doorstep, with the country needing to be secure, with FEMA and other emergency agencies not ready for the coming hurricane season, we are feted to the sight of our nation's Senate spending its time debating gay marriage (a couple of weeks ago) and now flag burning.

Am I missing something about priorities?

This is just more of the GOP's need to activate their base by dealing with issues which have no impact whatsoever on the real issues we are faced with. It is also an attempot by Dr. "I can diagnose PVS from a video tape" Frist burnishing his image for his run for the White House.

Nope, Jolly. I am not worried about having a Constitutional Amendment to moan about. This is just politics at its pandering best -- and from what it sound like, there are some in this coutnry who prefer pandering to true governing.

You're deficient in math.

Count the red states.

You'll get more than what is needed.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Jun 15 2006, 05:33 PM
Jolly
Jun 15 2006, 04:07 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 15 2006, 02:46 PM
Does this really need a constitutional amendment?

Would Union Jack toilet paper be considered insulting over here? What about that picture that George posted the other day with the English flag underpants? What a load of old bollocks.

It's nice to see my tax dollars being used so wisely by this 'conservative' government.

I could be more pragmatic.

How 'bout an agreement that if a person burns the Stars & Stripes in protest, that whatever happens, happens, and is not subject to prosecution.

There would be very, very few flags burnt in this concealed carry state. :whistle:

Of course, if the person burning the flag (who would be ready for action, because he knows what he's about to do) is carrying concealed too, we could have a shoot-out at the OK Corral. And if he happens to gun down someone who is shooting at him, we wouldn't want the flag-burner prosecuted either, right?

And if an innocent bystander happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and get hit in the crossfire, "whatever happens, happens, and is not subject to prosecution", right?

Utter silliness.

Personally, I don't worry about protecting flag-burning as a method of protest. There are plenty of other ways of protesting, and there's no real need to burn the flag, which is a method of protest designed to fan the flames of emotion. But it seems like a massive overreaction to make a Constitutional amendment out of it. Constitutional amendments should be reserved for important stuff. This just doesn't rise to that level, imho.

Not really.

I can tell you've never been around people who carry weapons constantly.

An armed society is a polite society.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 09:45 AM

Not really.

I can tell you've never been around people who carry weapons constantly.

An armed society is a polite society.

I don't believe that's necessarily true, I think the equation's more complicated than that. Iraq doesn't strike me as particularly polite (obviously I'm not basing this on personal experience), whereas middle class Victorian England probably was.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
An armed society is a polite society? Then why do people get shot every day. Out of politeness? I'm not saying "get rid of guns" etc etc. That's stupid. Not at all. But why that choice of words?

Do you know how many hunters that come down here from NJ and PA there are? Most of them are rich guys who want to play. They are far from polite, and far from good hunters.
And how are you today?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 05:42 AM
You're deficient in math.

Count the red states.

You'll get more than what is needed.

Oh Jolly, you're smarter than that.

Do you truly believe that both legislative houses (and the governor where required) in all red states will approve this?

The last poll I saw saw showed only about 10% of Americans support a constitutional amendment on flag burning, which is why we know this silliness in Congress is just pandering -- the same as the vote on the gay marriage amendment, being debated when everyone knew it would never get approved.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 05:45 AM
An armed society is a polite society.

You mean like frontier towns in the 1800's?

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 11:05 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 05:42 AM
You're deficient in math.

Count the red states.

You'll get more than what is needed.

Oh Jolly, you're smarter than that.

Do you truly believe that both legislative houses (and the governor where required) in all red states will approve this?

The last poll I saw saw showed only about 10% of Americans support a constitutional amendment on flag burning, which is why we know this silliness in Congress is just pandering -- the same as the vote on the gay marriage amendment, being debated when everyone knew it would never get approved.

The red states all want it because they're more patriotic than the blue states, who would much rather be part of a socialist workers collective than in the USA. :rolleyes:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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John, at least you're learning! :biggrin:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 11:08 AM
John, at least you're learning! :biggrin:

Hey, I'm English. When you celebrate all those New England patriots (the historical figures, not the over-paid pseudo Rugby players) on the 4th July, I just see a load of radicals who wouldn't do what they were told by their conservative masters.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
In Canada flag burning is the legislated means of properly disposing the flag. Officially, should a Canadian flag ever touch the ground or wear out, it is to be ceremoniously burned. Disposal of the Canadian flag via the regular waste stream is subject to heavy fine or imprisonment.

As a Canadian therefore it would never cross my mind to burn the flag in protest. The flag does not levy taxes, nor does it in any way represent the selfish interests of politicians and political parties. The straw effigy of a Prime Minister, provincial premier or cabinet minister does and is therefore a far more suitable combustible for the purpose of public protest.
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phykell
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Senior Carp
The 89th Key
Jun 15 2006, 10:29 PM
There's a reason why we left Britain - specifically the enforcement against protesting your government through silent and symbolic means.

I always assumed you were born in the USA. I didn't know you ever "left" Britain.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars
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Rick Zimmer
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AlbertaCrude
Jun 16 2006, 07:34 AM
In Canada flag burning is the legislated means of properly disposing the flag. Officially, should a Canadian flag ever touch the ground or wear out, it is to be  ceremoniously burned. 

The same is true in the US -- which is one of the reasons this Amendment can only be construed as restricting free speech. It cannot be construed as honoring or respecting the flag, we burn them all the time. Its intent is solely to limit a form of non-violent protest.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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phykell
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Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 01:45 PM
Not really.

I can tell you've never been around people who carry weapons constantly.

An armed society is a polite society.

Polite? In this case, is that a euphemism for "scared"?
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars
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The 89th Key
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We meaning the USA. I guess John D'oh too.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 10:07 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 05:45 AM
An armed society is a polite society.

You mean like frontier towns in the 1800's?

Frontier towns in the 1800s were hot beds of violence only in the movies.

Trust me. I was born and raised in one (although not in the 1800s). I went to school with kids who lived on a ranch and showed up carrying guns. No big deal.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 07:48 AM
AlbertaCrude
Jun 16 2006, 07:34 AM
In Canada flag burning is the legislated means of properly disposing the flag. 

The same is true in the US -- which is one of the reasons this Amendment can only be construed as restricting free speech. It cannot be construed as honoring or respecting the flag, we burn them all the time. Its intent is solely to limit a form of non-violent protest.

Or reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Jun 16 2006, 11:48 AM
We meaning the USA. I guess John D'oh too.

I certainly didn't leave the UK because I wasn't allowed to protest symbolically. It may have escaped some people's notice, but Merrie Englande has evolved somewhat since 1776, no doubt due to America's benign influence as the Inventor of Freedom(tm).

Now, where's my thumbscrews....?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 16 2006, 09:07 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 05:45 AM
An armed society is a polite society.

You mean like frontier towns in the 1800's?

John Ford did not portray the West accurately, and most cowboys were not much like John Wayne.

With the exception of the boom towns (and then only "across the tracks") were frontier towns violent.

Yet, most men of that time and place were armed. Schofield, Star, Colt, whatever.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
phykell
Jun 16 2006, 09:48 AM
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 01:45 PM
Not really.

I can tell you've never been around people who carry weapons constantly.

An armed society is a polite society.

Polite? In this case, is that a euphemism for "scared"?

Not really.

Carrying a gun for me is no more than you slipping your wallet in your pants...except you probably don't double-check the chamber on your wallet before putting it in your pocket.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Nobody's Sock
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Jun 15 2006, 03:58 PM
Hell, let's give it the benefit of the doubt, and assume it happens ten times a year.

Is it worth a Constitutional amendment?

Nope.

Personally, I think we should have a Constitutional amendment to require people to use "its" and "it's" properly. It's an epidemic, people!

That also goes for tits.

There should be a Constitutional amendment for playing with tits properly.

I've heard so many women complain that a guy just doesn't know what he's doing -

always going straight for the nipple. Sheesh!
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Jun 16 2006, 08:45 AM
QuirtEvans
Jun 15 2006, 05:33 PM
Jolly
Jun 15 2006, 04:07 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 15 2006, 02:46 PM
Does this really need a constitutional amendment?

Would Union Jack toilet paper be considered insulting over here? What about that picture that George posted the other day with the English flag underpants? What a load of old bollocks.

It's nice to see my tax dollars being used so wisely by this 'conservative' government.

I could be more pragmatic.

How 'bout an agreement that if a person burns the Stars & Stripes in protest, that whatever happens, happens, and is not subject to prosecution.

There would be very, very few flags burnt in this concealed carry state. :whistle:

Of course, if the person burning the flag (who would be ready for action, because he knows what he's about to do) is carrying concealed too, we could have a shoot-out at the OK Corral. And if he happens to gun down someone who is shooting at him, we wouldn't want the flag-burner prosecuted either, right?

And if an innocent bystander happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and get hit in the crossfire, "whatever happens, happens, and is not subject to prosecution", right?

Utter silliness.

Personally, I don't worry about protecting flag-burning as a method of protest. There are plenty of other ways of protesting, and there's no real need to burn the flag, which is a method of protest designed to fan the flames of emotion. But it seems like a massive overreaction to make a Constitutional amendment out of it. Constitutional amendments should be reserved for important stuff. This just doesn't rise to that level, imho.

Not really.

I can tell you've never been around people who carry weapons constantly.

An armed society is a polite society.

First, your powers of perception are not all that great, Karnak.

But second, assume that your silly proposal were law. And then assume that someone was planning to burn a flag, and that the ensuing reaction would be as you expect. You don't think the flag-burner would be ready for that reaction?

I will give you that flag burnings would go down. There would be fewer, no question. But they'd still occur, and when they did, it would be outright mayhem.

But, of course, you haven't answered my questions about your silly proposal ... because there really is no answer. I'll ask them again, for amusement.

If the flag-burner happens to gun down someone who is shooting at him, we wouldn't want the flag-burner prosecuted either, right?

And if an innocent bystander happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and get hit in the crossfire, "whatever happens, happens, and is not subject to prosecution", right?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
No, you could prosecute for Involuntary Manslaughter.

I submit that flag burnings would be a rare enough event, that it would rarely have to be involked.

Besides, most of the people I've seen on the news burning flags generally do not strike me as people that shoot fairly well.

Now, to take toungue out of cheek a bit...

I don't think you know that much about guns or the people who use them, but I'll be patiently waiting for you to expound upon the subject.

Impress me.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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