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Guantanamo update; Triple suicide + UN criticism ...
Topic Started: Jun 10 2006, 09:37 PM (941 Views)
JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
Jusr curious... let's suppose your hypothesis is correct in this instance, how do you like the idea of us sending a person whom we have declared a "safe person" to a place so horrifying that said person would choose death?


What other alternative have we? There are only a limited number of places that would accept such a person. It is no coincidence that those are precisely the places such a person would never want to go.


Quote:
 
Perhaps you're thinking about "rendering" such person to some other jurisdiction under which more persuasive interrogation methods might be used?


What need would there be of "rendering" a person declared to be a "safe person, free to be released"?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Anyone promoting such idiocy is as guilty of fighting against America as the people in Gitmo as far as I'm concerned, and should be stood up against a wall and shot dead.


This is precisely the kind of insane rhetoric that makes it impossible to take anything you say seriously. Even if you appear coherent from time to time, I remember back to statements like this and realize that there's no such thing as an intelligent discussion with you.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Jun 11 2006, 01:18 PM
There is no comparison between the Gitmo camps and the internment of Japanese Americans. There are no US citizens being held at Gitmo.

And the Japanese Americans were not shooting at us.

There might be if Lil' Bush were allowed to do exactly as he wants (or, perhaps, as Cheney wants).

Anyone remember Hamdi?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Lacking in this conversation is one small factoid:

Many of the countries from which these folks originated, do not want them back.

Period.

So what to do with a man with no country?

Turn him loose in NYC with a cab?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Phlebas
Jun 11 2006, 10:16 AM
Does that mean these people will be held indefinately - 10, 20,30+ years?

I should hope they are held until they are no longer considered a threat.

Being an enemy combatant or terrorist should have unpleasant consequences.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
QuirtEvans
Jun 12 2006, 06:34 AM
Mikhailoh
Jun 11 2006, 01:18 PM
There is no comparison between the Gitmo camps and the internment of Japanese Americans.  There are no US citizens being held at Gitmo.

And the Japanese Americans were not shooting at us.

There might be if Lil' Bush were allowed to do exactly as he wants (or, perhaps, as Cheney wants).

Anyone remember Hamdi?

And how is it you are privy to exactly what the president wants to do?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Jun 12 2006, 10:04 AM
Quote:
 
Jusr curious... let's suppose your hypothesis is correct in this instance, how do you like the idea of us sending a person whom we have declared a "safe person" to a place so horrifying that said person would choose death?


What other alternative have we? There are only a limited number of places that would accept such a person. It is no coincidence that those are precisely the places such a person would never want to go.


Quote:
 
Perhaps you're thinking about "rendering" such person to some other jurisdiction under which more persuasive interrogation methods might be used?


What need would there be of "rendering" a person declared to be a "safe person, free to be released"?

JB,

I was more sinister in my thinking when writing that. I was suggesting that perhaps the "safe person" declaration was just for show, that while we want to tell the press and the world that we've "released" this person, we really planned on "rendering" this person to another location. After all, many (not necessarily you) argued that every one of those Gitmo detainees is guilty of terrorism and is a threat to us, hence there would be no genuine "safe person" among the detainees.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Jun 12 2006, 12:45 PM
QuirtEvans
Jun 12 2006, 06:34 AM
Mikhailoh
Jun 11 2006, 01:18 PM
There is no comparison between the Gitmo camps and the internment of Japanese Americans.  There are no US citizens being held at Gitmo.

And the Japanese Americans were not shooting at us.

There might be if Lil' Bush were allowed to do exactly as he wants (or, perhaps, as Cheney wants).

Anyone remember Hamdi?

And how is it you are privy to exactly what the president wants to do?

The Administration has said, flat out, that they have the right to hold American citizens as enemy combatants, without a trial.

Enemy combatants are held at Gitmo, rather than in the U.S., to evade any laws that might apply to actions that can or cannot be taken on U.S. soil. (And let's not wade back through the question of whether Gitmo is U.S. soil, please.)

You can connect the dots, Mik, it isn't all that hard. Even a bear of little brain could do it.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
JB,

I was more sinister in my thinking when writing that. I was suggesting that perhaps the "safe person" declaration was just for show, that while we want to tell the press and the world that we've "released" this person, we really planned on "rendering" this person to another location. After all, many (not necessarily you) argued that every one of those Gitmo detainees is guilty of terrorism and is a threat to us, hence there would be no genuine "safe person" among the detainees.


Seems like an awful lot of subterfuge for something that could be accomplished quite easily without it.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JB,

Perhaps you are correct that the "safe person" declaration is genuine. Then I'm at a lost as to why such a person would choose death over release to whatever country that we may send him to if he were told of his impending release. Would it be so hard to wait until he gets to his assigned destination to decide whether it's better to live or to die?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
They hadn't told him that he was going to be released when he committed suicide. I would have thought that the 'safe' people would be among the most likely ones to commit suicide in this kind of situation.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
That bear crack was uncalled for Quirt.. I've not attacked you personally.

If American citizens are captured fighting with terrorists against US forces, as in John whatsisname, then I have no issue with them being held as enemy combatants.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
That bear crack was uncalled for Quirt.. I've not attacked you personally.


I apologize, Mik. The bear crack was not directed at you, but I can certainly see how it could seem so. My bad.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Axtremus
Jun 12 2006, 02:08 PM
JB,

Perhaps you are correct that the "safe person" declaration is genuine. Then I'm at a lost as to why such a person would choose death over release to whatever country that we may send him to if he were told of his impending release. Would it be so hard to wait until he gets to his assigned destination to decide whether it's better to live or to die?

You sure seem to be torturing this needlessly. I don't presume to know why they committed suicide but the fact that they had been declared "safe" and their release to another country (presumably, one where they would rather not go) would seem to have less to do with it if they had not been told than if they had.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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