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Guantanamo update; Triple suicide + UN criticism ...
Topic Started: Jun 10 2006, 09:37 PM (943 Views)
Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
The rethoric by some people in this thread reminds me of a few famous speeches.

Quote:
 

"And after this reform we shall come to recognize the duty of self-preservation. A man who says: 'I deny that I have a right to defend my personal life' has thereby denied his right to exist. TO BE A PACIFIST ARGUES A LACK OF CONVICTION, A LACK OF CHARACTER. For the pacifist is indeed ready enough to claim the help of others, but himself declines to defend himself. It is precisely the same with a people. A people which is not prepared to protect itself is a people without character. We must recover for our people as one of its most elementary principles the recognition of the fact that a man is truly man only if he defends and protects himself, that a people deserves that name only if in case of necessity it is prepared as a people to enter the lists. That is not militarism, that is self-preservation.

Therefore we stand for compulsory military service for every man. If a State is not worth that - then away with it! Then you must not complain if you are enslaved. But if you believe that you must be free, then you must learn to recognize that no one gives you freedom save only your own sword. What our people needs is not leaders in Parliament, but those who are determined to carry through what they see to be right before God, before the world, and before their own consciences - and to carry that through, if need be, in the teeth of majorities. And if we succeed in raising such leaders from the body of our people, then around them once again a nation will crystallize itself... "


By the way, this was A. Hitler on April 27, 1923 in Munich. This is the beginning of how you can justify absolutly everything in the name of "self defense". As we can see here, some people already go so far to justify the killing of members of this board ("...should be stood up against a wall and shot dead...") if they object to some of the "self defence" measures. What's next? Prohibit inconvenient media? Arrest people who protest against Guantanamo?

Note that I don't compare anyone to anyone else; I am just observing similarities in the argumentation...
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Once again proving Ann Coulter to be correct - step on a liberals toes and they trot out Hitler.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
I am not a liberal - I am a long-time supporter of the conservative party (CDU), and in principle I support military options, if that is the only thing that works. I am neither a pacifist, nor do I think terrorism is acceptable in any way. Maybe you are the one who lost track of your original goals and values a long time ago...
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Jun 11 2006, 09:46 AM
The rethoric by some people in this thread reminds me of a few famous speeches.

"And after this reform we shall come to recognize the duty of self-preservation. A man who says: 'I deny that I have a right to defend my personal life' has thereby denied his right to exist. TO BE A PACIFIST ARGUES A LACK OF CONVICTION, A LACK OF CHARACTER. For the pacifist is indeed ready enough to claim the help of others, but himself declines to defend himself. It is precisely the same with a people. A people which is not prepared to protect itself is a people without character. We must recover for our people as one of its most elementary principles the recognition of the fact that a man is truly man only if he defends and protects himself, that a people deserves that name only if in case of necessity it is prepared as a people to enter the lists. That is not militarism, that is self-preservation.

Therefore we stand for compulsory military service for every man. If a State is not worth that - then away with it! Then you must not complain if you are enslaved. But if you believe that you must be free, then you must learn to recognize that no one gives you freedom save only your own sword. What our people needs is not leaders in Parliament, but those who are determined to carry through what they see to be right before God, before the world, and before their own consciences - and to carry that through, if need be, in the teeth of majorities. And if we succeed in raising such leaders from the body of our people, then around them once again a nation will crystallize itself... "

By the way, this was A. Hitler on April 27, 1923 in Munich. This is the beginning of how you can justify absolutly everything in the name of "self defense". As we can see here, some people already go so far to justify the killing of members of this board ("...should be stood up against a wall and shot dead...") if they object to some of the "self defence" measures. What's next? Prohibit inconvenient media? Arrest people who protest against Guantanamo?

Note that I don't compare anyone to anyone else; I am just observing similarities in the argumentation...

Oh, I'll take this one and run with it....


Is everything that Hitler ever said, or even everything the Nazi Party did, evil?

If one is honest, I don't think you can entirely dismiss everything...remember, at about the time Hitler spoke those words or shortly thereafter, a man had to have a wheelbarrow to bring homes his week's wages, which were pretty much worthless. You could take less than $400 American/month, and lease a townhouse, a maid, a cook and a mistress in Berlin. Hitler did manage to turn the German economy around, even before the war.

So maybe the Fuerher did some good along the way...with a whole lot of bad.

But how does that compare with the U.S., which even by its most ardent ccritics does a whole lot of good, mixed in with a bit of bad? And in the case of Gitmo, a pretty good argument can be made concerning whether Gitmo is bad, or not.

No, I don't think the Hitler argument is particularly cogent...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly,

as I said, I did not want to compare anyone to someone else (ie., Hitler etc.).
My point was just that he also justified all kinds of things in the name of self defence. He always claimed he only fights for peace, and the fight against the jews was, in his view, just another self defence measure.

So, I just wanted to say that it is very dangerous to stop questioning and challenging your own measures, and one should never stop to ask yourself whether your measures still serve your original goal or whether it just makes you more similar to what you fight against.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Rick Zimmer
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About a year ago or so, when the debate about force-feeding those on hunger strikes was going on, one of the top Generals at the Pentagon (sorry I forget which one) said that we cannot have any deaths at Guatanamo because any who died would become instant martyrs and stir the masses who the jihadists depend on for support. Well, now we have three martyrs.

It doesn't really matter how any of you justify what Bush is doing at Guantanamo. This is a major blow for the US.

If we are going to win the war against the jihadists, one of the primary things we must do is to reduce any signifcant support they have among the people. We cannot do this when we act against our own values and run such places at Guatanomo Bay, secret prisons throughout Europe. We can not do this when we send prisoners to countries to be tortured in ways even Bush won't countenance. We cannot do this wehen Bush slices and dices words to justify torture by the American government. We can not do this by changing the army Field Manual so it ignores the Geneva Convention.

The only thing all of this does is prove to people that the jihabists are right -- America talks the talk but does not walk the walk.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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An article from February 17, 2006, from The Guardian on Tony Blair's view on Guantanamo:

Blair: Guantanamo is an anomaly

Tony Blair today said the US detention camp at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba was an "anomaly" that would have to be "dealt with".

In Berlin to meet the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, the prime minister was asked whether he supported a call from his Northern Ireland secretary, Peter Hain, for the centre to be closed.

"I have always said it is an anomaly, and sooner or later has to be dealt with," the prime minister told a news conference, repeating a comment he made to MPs last November.

Last night, Mr Hain told BBC1's Question Time: "I would prefer that it [Guantánamo] was not there. I would prefer it was closed, yes."
Asked whether it was government policy that Guantánamo should be shut down, he replied: "That's what I think."

Mr Hain was asked for his reaction to a United Nations report, backed by UN secretary general Kofi Annan, calling for inmates to be tried or released and for the camp's immediate closure. Some aspects of prisoners' treatment, including the force-feeding of hunger strikers, amounted to torture, the report said.

The camp, opened in 2002 to hold terror suspects seized during the Afghanistan war, is believed to currently contain around 500 inmates.

Mr Hain said the British government accepted that useful information had been obtained from detainees at Guantánamo, but had always been uncomfortable with the camp's existence.

"What we have said all along is, we don't agree with that," he said. "[The prime minister] has said that as a matter of fact some of the information that came from there was of importance, but that does not mean to say that he thinks the place should have been set up in the first place. There's a distinction there."

He added: "We've always said that Guantánamo Bay was something that should not have happened."

The chairman of the Commons foreign affairs committee, the Labour MP Mike Gapes, welcomed Mr Hain's comments.

"I think the British government was reluctant for a long time to make very strong public statements because we had British citizens still in there," he told the BBC.

"I think anybody who reads this report will see that in many respects there are aspects of the Guantánamo regime that are very, very open to criticism. It is not in America's own interests to maintain this place."

The veteran South African anti-apartheid campaigner Archbishop Desmond Tutu today joined the chorus of criticism of Guantánamo Bay.

"I never imagined I would live to see the day when the United States and its satellites would use precisely the same arguments that the apartheid government used for detention without trial. It is disgraceful," he told the BBC's Today programme.

"One cannot find strong enough words to condemn what Britain and the United States and some of their allies have accepted."

He also attacked Mr Blair's failed attempt to hold terrorist suspects in Britain for up to 90 days without charge.

"Ninety days for a South African is an awful deja vu because we had in South Africa, in the bad old days, a 90-day detention law," he said.

Yesterday's UN report, ordered by the body's commission on human rights, urged the US government to refrain from any practice "amounting to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" at Guantánamo.

Mr Annan said: "I think sooner or later there will be a need to close Guantánamo, and I think it will be up to the [US] government to decide, hopefully, to do it as soon as is possible."

Following the report's publication, the US administration dismissed its findings as "largely without merit".

Nine British nationals who were detained there have now been flown back to the UK and released without charge.

None of the current inmates at Guantánamo is British, but Amnesty International believes eight were resident in the UK, and that some have relatives here.

Yesterday, three long-term UK residents (though not British citizens) got the go-ahead to seek a high court order requiring the foreign secretary, Jack Straw, to petition for their release from the base.

A judge in London said allegations of torture at the facility meant the detainees and their families living in the UK could make the case that the British government was under an obligation to act on their behalf.

Lawyers for the three men, Bisher al-Rawi, Jamil el-Banna and Omar Deghayes, and their families were told there was "no guarantee" they would win the case, expected to be heard in full in mid-March.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
A quote from the above article (for those who did not read the entire thing), from Archbishop Desmond Tutu:

"I never imagined I would live to see the day when the United States and its satellites would use precisely the same arguments that the apartheid government used for detention without trial. It is disgraceful,"
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jun 11 2006, 07:46 AM
The rethoric by some people in this thread reminds me of a few famous speeches.

(snip)

By the way, this was A. Hitler on April 27, 1923 in Munich...

For the record, Klaus, I don't recall Jews, or anyone else for that matter, declaring a holy war against Hitler or the German people, blowing up its citizens, crashing planes into their buildings, attacking its naval ships, assassinating its diplomats, or such.

While your observation that tyranny is often established incrementally is valid, your comparison in this situation is completely invalid.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
How many German prisoners of war held during WWII were given legal representation and a trial?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 11 2006, 09:33 AM
A quote from the above article (for those who did not read the entire thing), from Archbishop Desmond Tutu:

"I never imagined I would live to see the day when the United States and its satellites would use precisely the same arguments that the apartheid government used for detention without trial. It is disgraceful,"

Desmond Tutu must be unable to distinguish between black people trying to live their lives in an oppressive white society from insurgents who fight out of uniform, use innocent civilians as shields, terrorize the civilian populations, decapitate innocent nonmilitary civilian workers, and call for the forced conversion of the West to Islam.

Evidently you are incapable of making that distinction as well, Rick, or you wouldn't have wheeled out Tutu.

It is amusing that you attempt an inverted argumentum ad Hitlerum by invoking Tutu as an unassailable authority. You really should learn to think for yourself.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jun 11 2006, 08:50 AM
While your observation that tyranny is often established incrementally is valid, your comparison in this situation is completely invalid.

As I said very clearly above, it was not my intention to compare the situation today to the situation before WW2; I was just pointing out the danger of the "you are either our friend or our enemy" kind of argument.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Phlebas
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Dewey
Jun 11 2006, 08:51 AM
How many German prisoners of war held during WWII were given legal representation and a trial?

A lot, and probably very few.

Q. How many Japanese and Japanese-Americans living in the US in the 1940's were sent to camps without legal representation simply because they were Japanese?

A. A lot.

Ok. here's a non-strawman question: At what point does Gitmo need to be addressed? The "war on terrorism" will be ongoing, and never ending. Does that mean these people will be held indefinately - 10,. 20,30+ years? My point is, they should be sorted out. The bad guys should rot in prison, and the ones who are innocent should be given an opportunity to prove they are.

We - in the USA - may look back on Gitmo with the same shame we look back on the camps we held Japanese - under better conditions - in.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Mikhailoh
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There is no comparison between the Gitmo camps and the internment of Japanese Americans. There are no US citizens being held at Gitmo.

And the Japanese Americans were not shooting at us.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Phlebas
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Mikhailoh
Jun 11 2006, 10:18 AM
There is no comparison between the Gitmo camps and the internment of Japanese Americans. There are no US citizens being held at Gitmo.

And the Japanese Americans were not shooting at us.

I'm not comparing the two. I'm saying we did something back then that is seen today as shameful. We are in danger of doing somthing shameful today.

Also, how do you know everyone in Gitmo was shooting at us? I have very little confidence that everyone in Gitmo was. I think a lot of people of Japanese decent who were improsoned during WWII may have been potentional spies. So, like you said, there's no comparison.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No, you are not comparing them.. you are equating their 'shameful character', if you will, when you bring it up in that manner.

The detainees at Gitmo were captured in war. There was and is a clear interest in detaining at least the greater part of them. Some have been released and others are being looked at for potential release.

I think what happened to the Japanese Americans in WWII was unfortunate, but I'm not sure I see it as quite as shameful as many do. Faced with the situation Roosevelt faced, what should have been done?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
In the interviews conducted by "he-whose-name-may-not-be-mentioned" he touched on this:

Quote:
 
Ok. here's a non-strawman question: At what point does Gitmo need to be addressed? The "war on terrorism" will be ongoing, and never ending. Does that mean these people will be held indefinately - 10,. 20,30+ years? My point is, they should be sorted out. The bad guys should rot in prison, and the ones who are innocent should be given an opportunity to prove they are.


The interrogators at Gitmo says this has been working in their favor. With an essentially open-ended war - since the terrorists are unlikely to lay down arms - early release is being defined as sometime before the cessation of hostilities. Whem Achmed thinks it's either 25 years in the big house, or life, suddenly 25 years ain't so bad.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Ok. here's a non-strawman question...

Not a strawman at all. Both the Germans and Gitmo detainees were captured while shooting very real, non-strawlike bullets, at us.

Phlebas, I agree with your sorting-out point. In fact, I believe it is already taking place, and has been for some time now. If it can be speeded up in a logical way, we should do so. But I'm not getting too worked up over the length of time these guys have been cooling their heels so far, which is still a relatively short time.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I would prefer they take their sweet time sorting it out and be certain. The lives of our people in uniform as well as civilians who may become victims of terrorist attacks may depend on the accuracy of the process. Certainly, I would like for this process to be carried out but simply closing Gitmo is no answer. Just what do we do with the detainees being held today? It would seem that releasing them would be the only option since detention in any facility would have been foreclosed by the closing of Gitmo.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jun 11 2006, 09:43 AM
As I said very clearly above, it was not my intention to compare the situation today to the situation before WW2; I was just pointing out the danger of the "you are either our friend or our enemy" kind of argument.

Posted Image
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I would prefer they take their sweet time sorting it out and be certain. The lives of our people in uniform as well as civilians who may become victims of terrorist attacks may depend on the accuracy of the process.


The problem you have with people like Rick though, is they lack the wisdom to see that. They start every argument, every thought, every iota of their being, from the position that America is wrong first. Everything else is forced through that.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jun 11 2006, 12:25 PM
Klaus
Jun 11 2006, 09:43 AM
As I said very clearly above, it was not my intention to compare the situation today to the situation before WW2; I was just pointing out the danger of the "you are either our friend or our enemy" kind of argument.

Posted Image

You should consult a book in order to understand the real meaning of Magritte's painting.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Another update:

One of the detainee who has committed suicide was actually declared a "safe person, free to be released," but he was not told that before he committed suicide because the US has not decided where (which country) to send him to.

[URL=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5070514.stm
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5070514.stm[/URL] ]

...

The Pentagon named the prisoner who had been recommended for transfer as 30-year-old Saudi Arabian Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi.

He was a member of a banned Saudi militant group, the defence department said.

...

Utaybi had been declared a "safe person, free to be released" but the US needed a country to send him to, ...
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Perhaps he was told that and committed suicide contemplating the possible countries to which he might be sent.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Jun 12 2006, 09:42 AM
Perhaps he was told that and committed suicide contemplating the possible countries to which he might be sent.

Jusr curious... let's suppose your hypothesis is correct in this instance, how do you like the idea of us sending a person whom we have declared a "safe person" to a place so horrifying that said person would choose death?

Perhaps you're thinking about "rendering" such person to some other jurisdiction under which more persuasive interrogation methods might be used?
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