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| Guantanamo update; Triple suicide + UN criticism ... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 10 2006, 09:37 PM (940 Views) | |
| Axtremus | Jun 10 2006, 09:37 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Triple Suicide in Gitmo: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068228.stm UN Committee calls for Gitmo closure: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4997458.stm Addendum: Link to BBC News readers' comments on the Gitmo situation: http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jsp...=20060611070750 |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jun 10 2006, 09:42 PM Post #2 |
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Fulla-Carp
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No matter the circumstances, this event is a major blow to the US. Even Britain has been urging us to close this place down and Bush has refused. It just is another way in which the US is thumbing its nose at the world and by doing so is losing any moral authority it has left. The US cannot hope to export freedom and democracy when those to whom the idea is to be sold are laughing at the hypocrisy of this country. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| kenny | Jun 10 2006, 09:59 PM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I am *deeply* ashamed of what America has turned into.
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| ivorythumper | Jun 10 2006, 10:02 PM Post #4 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Are you ready to close down all the prisons and jails in America? Lots of prisoners commit suicide (sadly), but these recent events seem to tell us much more about the mentality of the prisoners than the prisons. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | Jun 10 2006, 10:32 PM Post #5 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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It's three less we need to shoot. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 10 2006, 10:45 PM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Would have even fewer left to shoot had we just skip that force feeding part when they went on hunger strike a while back. |
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| Klaus | Jun 11 2006, 12:35 AM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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In my opinion, the conditions of the prisoners (how they are treated etc.) and even the suicides now are only of secondary importance in comparison to the fact the prisoners are held without any trial that proves they are guilty of crimes. If there is proof they are guilty, why not prove this at court? If there is no proof, why are they still detained? This is absolutly unworthy of a constitutional state. This kind of behavior is usually a typical sign of dictatorships but not of a country which claims to fight for freedom and democracy. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| lb1 | Jun 11 2006, 03:33 AM Post #8 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Last year there was a 16 year old girl murdered down the road from where I live. She was in her home when it happened and the guy that did it didn’t know her or had ever seen her before, he just picked her house at random. The girls 13 year old sister was upstairs while it was happening and called 911. When the police arrived they found the guy in the kitchen still cutting her with a knife. He had cut her vagina open all the way to her rib cage and her guts were spilling on the floor. He had almost removed one breast, and he had cut her throat as well as stabbing her several times. The girl was still alive but her pleas for help were just gurgles. The paramedics tried to save her but she was sliced up too bad. The police arrested the guy, read him his rights, and took him to jail. At a trial by a jury of his peers, he was found guilty and received the death sentence. Was he guilty? His conviction was thrown out and he is now awaiting a retrial. It seems that because of all the media attention he wasn’t able to get a fair trial where he was tried The detainees at Gitmo are just as guilty as the asshole that killed the girl. They were all caught in the field of battle armed and exhibiting hostile action. There were some apparent innocent people caught in the net with them, and after investigation they have been released. I don’t think that the asshole that killed the girl should have received a first trial much less a second and probably a third and fourth. If I was the cop, trial and execution would have happened in the girls kitchen. The world opinion of the US would not change unless the detainees were all sent to France for trial, and too the man, found not guilty. The US would then be inundated with law suits for unlawful arrest and detainment. Keep the bast*rds where they are, or release them and make them swim back to where they came from. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Phlebas | Jun 11 2006, 04:05 AM Post #9 |
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Bull-Carp
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How do you know for a fact that all the people in Gitmo are guilty, and all the "apparently innocent" people were freed (never mind freed after how long, and how much mistreatment)? We can only know for a fact if they are given a trial. What we are doing in GB is shameful. People have been there for years with no hope of a trial. Some are guilty people, and some are innocent. I don't much care how it makes the US look, as much as I care about the overall injustice of it. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| Dewey | Jun 11 2006, 04:19 AM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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These people weren't arrested and detained as part of civil law enforcement; they were captured in combat. As such, they are not due any access to or redress through the civil judicial system. They are quite clearly prisoners of war, subject to cooling their heels in a POW camp until the side that they've claimed allegiance to has surrendered. If the US needs to modify its treatment of these people in any way to comply with the terms of holding prisoners of war, then they should do so, but the place should not be shut down, and the prisoners should not have access to civil legal process, regardless of what the readers of BBC News, or anyone else around the world, thinks. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Phlebas | Jun 11 2006, 04:50 AM Post #11 |
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Bull-Carp
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THe problem with that is Bush says they are not subject ot the Geneva Convention because of the nature of the prisoners, and he says they are not entitled to a trial because of the nature of the prisoners. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too. Lots of the people there are bastards, who probably should be shot. Lots of them might be less guilty. I say process them to punishment or release. Sort them out. If they are prisoners of the "war on terrorism" they'll be there forever with no redress because the war on terrorism will never end. Do all of them thre deserve to be there indefinately? I doubt it. We should treat them better than they would treat us. That's what I hope the USA stands for. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| George K | Jun 11 2006, 05:15 AM Post #12 |
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Finally
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Without intentionally hijacking this thread, let me point out that Geneva Convention "rights" and responsibilities of the captor are defined very specifically. A prisoner of war is a uniformed soldier who carries a plainly displayed weapon. Anyone else can be classified as a spy or a "enemy combatant. To show you how narrow it is, there have been incidents in Iraq where a terrorist shoots at an American soldier. The American has raised his weapon to shoot back, but the terrorist has dropped his rifle. Under the rules of engagement, the American is prohibited from firing back. The man is without a uniform, and he is unarmed. That's the enemy. He knows no rules for himself, but he knows all of ours. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 11 2006, 05:31 AM Post #13 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I understand the problem. If you release them back, they may return to fighting against you. Nevertheless, in a war that by its nature is going to be indefinite, this is shameful behavior. Prove to the world that they are a danger, and need to be incarcerated as POWs, because they might return to the battle. Prove that they are guilty of crimes, if you can. Otherwise, let them go. The sad part is that, even if we captured someone by mistake and they weren't disposed to fight against us before, they sure as hell might be now. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| George K | Jun 11 2006, 05:36 AM Post #14 |
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Finally
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Have there been (this is the wrong word, for it has all kinds of legal implications) "trials" of these "detainees?" It was my understanding that the cases are reviewed by some kind of body to evaluate the capture and need for continued imprisonment. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Dewey | Jun 11 2006, 05:38 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That's exactly correct - they decided to play the risky game of conducting warfare from within loopholes of law, andnow they've found that there's a downside to that as well as an upside. I haven't been there and can't claim any firsthand knowledge, and I doubt that anyone else here has, either. And any group who does have the credentials to tour the facility - Congressional factfinding groups from both parties, International Red Cross, etc. - brings not only its eyes, but also its own political biases and predispositions to bear in its thoughts about the treatment of detainees there. I'm sure that there are specific instances of abuse there, as there are in any such facility, military or civilian, in any time or place. It's run by imperfect humans. Still, I believe that the US treatment fo the Guantanamo prisoners is not even close to the claims of mishandling and torture that some people make. I believe that the detainees are, overall, offered greater rights and better treatment than they have a legal right to, for the exact reason that George pointed out earler - their own actions make them ineligible for protection via the Geneva Convention, yet our treatment of them is not entirely, but in large part, consistent with Geneva Convention guidelines. The mere fact that some people are actually being processed out of the facility at all, before there is a cessation of hostilities, indicates an overall intent of treating these people as humanely as possible, given the realities of the situation and the mode within which they chose to wage war. We have already had instances of people being released form Guantanamo, only to be picked up again, or killed, as enemy combatants another day. If an enemy combatant force, or its apologists, want to have the moral authority to demand full compliance with the geneva Convention for its captured forces, then the force itself must have held itself to the same standards in waging the war. If not, their captors have no particular legal oblgiation to give the captives full treatment as if they had. And overall, I think the US has been sufficiently fair in its treatment of these people. (I type slowly; there have been two posts since the one I was replying to.) |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| JBryan | Jun 11 2006, 05:42 AM Post #16 |
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I am the grey one
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How do you go about proving someone "might" do something.
this is clearly not a criminal matter or one for which we are required to invoke criminal satutes. Many of these prisoners have been released before only to turn up again under arms against us. The shameless part of all of this is that the UN wrote this report without having once visited the facility even though they were offered a full and open tour. Their only and preconceived opinion is that this facility (and, presumably, any other like it) must be shut down. The world seems to be leaving the US no other option but to shoot these people on sight since nothing else that is done, no treatment given is fastidious enough to satisfy the rest of the world and never will be as long as thee are any that remain under detention. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Larry | Jun 11 2006, 05:53 AM Post #17 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Another shameless part of all this is the simpering fools who make statements like "this event is a major blow to the US" and "It just is another way in which the US is thumbing its nose at the world and by doing so is losing any moral authority it has left. The US cannot hope to export freedom and democracy when those to whom the idea is to be sold are laughing at the hypocrisy of this country". Anyone promoting such idiocy is as guilty of fighting against America as the people in Gitmo as far as I'm concerned, and should be stood up against a wall and shot dead. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| George K | Jun 11 2006, 05:57 AM Post #18 |
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Finally
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The average detainee at Gitmo has gained 18 pounds during his stay there. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Dewey | Jun 11 2006, 06:00 AM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"THe problem with that is Bush says they are not subject ot the Geneva Convention because of the nature of the prisoners, and he says they are not entitled to a trial because of the nature of the prisoners. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too." No, it's a case of a combatant force wanting to have its cake and eat it too. The problem, if it is defined as such, is one of the captives' own making, not Bush's. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 11 2006, 06:03 AM Post #20 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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(On a tangent, has any of you folks brought your comments on this to the BBC's readers' comment board? Just curious what it might look like if take this debate to BBC and make it a "Global Flame War on Terrorism" -- http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jsp...=20060611070750 ) Oh... link to Gitmo poll: http://s10.invisionfree.com/The_New_Coffee...showtopic=11712 (Sorry I did not think of adding a third option in the poll to tell the UN to **** off.) |
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| Larry | Jun 11 2006, 06:05 AM Post #21 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The UN should be shut down, all the little tin horn dictators sent home, Kofi Anan and his son arrested, and the building torn down to make a public park. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Jolly | Jun 11 2006, 06:44 AM Post #22 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Not yet, we need to wring these guys like a wet mop. According to Bill O'Reilly, who was in Gitmo doing interviews Friday, interrogators are saying that many of the detainees are just now starting to break...since we cannot use more severe forms of coercion, it has taken this long to make some of them come around, and see the light. As to the suicides....first autopsy I ever attended was on a jailhouse suicide - guy hung himself with a sheet. During the initial description, the Path suddenly stopped the dictaphone, looked up and said, "Gee, bet he had second thoughts". I can only hope that iof these gentlemen were guilty, that they have a nice warm place to entertain second thoughts... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Larry | Jun 11 2006, 06:56 AM Post #23 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The Truth About Gitmo Now watch the regular handwringing antiBush antiwar pacifists on here line up to discredit it..... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Phlebas | Jun 11 2006, 06:58 AM Post #24 |
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Bull-Carp
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Stopped reading there. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| lb1 | Jun 11 2006, 06:59 AM Post #25 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I bet there will come a day when the Bush bashers will have second thoughts also, but like suicide, it will be too late. I saw a guy that had hung himself with a chain once. Nice guy, but his wife just badgered him till he went out to the garage and threw a chain over a beam. The chain didn't slip like a rope so he just hung there alive for quite awhile. His fingers had the skin chewed off and the bones were exposed. Them second thoughts are a bitch when it is too late. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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