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The Rapture?
Topic Started: Jun 7 2006, 07:01 AM (699 Views)
musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jun 7 2006, 01:06 PM
I'm just a dumb architect.

you can't fool me!

but i won't drag you into this one.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
oh boy, seems its always up to me to explain these things to u christian folk...

this is just cut and paste stuff from wiki, but maybe will help explain some stuff...

from when i first heard of the rapture a number of years ago, ive been fascinated by the phenomenon. but then again, im fascinated by many many diverse things...strange world we live in...and so:

The Rapture is an event in certain systems of Christian eschatology (the study of the end times) whereby it is believed that all Christians will be taken from Earth by Jesus Christ into Heaven. Although almost all forms of Christianity believe that those who are "saved" will enter Heaven, the term "rapture" is usually applied specifically to the belief that Christians will be taken into heaven prior to the Second coming of Christ, and there will be a period of time where non-Christians will still be left on earth before Christ arrives to set up his earthly kingdom.

The earliest known extra-biblical reference to the rapture is from a sermon attributed to a fourth century Byzantine, Ephraem of Nisibis, in which he is quoted as saying, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." [1][2]

Although the doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead — as said to be taught by Jesus — was common to all Christians and part of the Nicene Creed, little attention was paid to the area of eschatology later known as 'Rapture' until the Protestant Reformation, aside from this ancient reference; thus the Christian denominations that have beliefs concerning a rapture are mostly those that appeared after the Reformation.

The later popularization of the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in the United States at the end of the 19th century. The doctrine of the rapture was further popularized by an evangelist named William Eugene Blackstone, whose book "Jesus is Coming" sold more than one million copies[3], and then by its inclusion in the Scofield Reference Bible.

Among Christians who do believe in a Rapture, there is substantial debate about the timing of the rapture relative to the seven-year Tribulation. Critics of a "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture, the belief that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation, often attribute that doctrine to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret MacDonald (a follower of Edward Irving) who had a vision in 1830. However, there are at least three other Pre-Tribulation references prior to Macdonald - in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812, and by John Darby himself in 1827.[4]

The Rapture gained popular interest in wider circles during the 1970s, in part thanks to the books of Hal Lindsey, including The Late Great Planet Earth.[5] Many of Lindsey's predictions in that book, which assumed that the rapture was imminent, were based on world conditions at the time. The Cold War figured prominently in his predictions of Armageddon, and other aspects of 1970s global politics were seen as having been predicted in the Bible. Lindsey believed, for example, that the 10-headed beast cited in Revelation was the European Economic Community, a forebearer of the European Union, which at the time consisted of ten nations.

Many Christians who do not agree that there will be a Rapture of the Church point out that it is a relatively new doctrine, first popularized in the 1800s and elaborated on subsequently. There are whole denominations holding this view, such as the Roman Catholic Church and all the Orthodox Churches.

Many do not accept the "rapture" interpretation because they recognize that it is not clearly expressed in the Bible, but instead relies on extrapolations and inferences made from a patchwork of disjointed verses. Many further believe that if anything this significant were intended to be a major part of Christian teaching, then surely Christ would have made a plain reference to it in his own sermons as recorded in the Gospel, and not buried such a major prophecy in a few verses of the Apostle Paul.

One common criticism of the rapture is based on the principle that the necessity of believing in Christ would be proven, by the events of the rapture, to anyone left behind. Thus anyone left behind who had knowledge of the rapture theory, but previously did not believe in Christ, would essentially be forced, by the proof of this miracle, to believe. This would prevent any type of Antichrist from having any credibility.

Most Roman Catholics and many Protestants do not accept the concept of a rapture in which some are "taken up into Heaven" before the end of the world; this idea did not exist in the teachings of any Christians whatsoever until the 1800s, so it cannot be said to belong to Apostolic Tradition. Instead, most Catholics and many Protestants interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 literally, and assert that the rapture will immediately follow the general resurrection on Judgment Day, when the living and the newly-resurrected-dead will rise up to meet Christ as he descends from heaven to judge the world. These people consider the rapture to be merely a minor detail in the Biblical description of the Second Coming of Christ.

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rapture Index of 85 and Below: Slow prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 85 to 110: Moderate prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 110 to 145: Heavy prophetic activity
Rapture Index above 145: Fasten your seat belts


so we are at 157...

im buckled up....
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jun 7 2006, 12:20 PM
Most Roman Catholics and many Protestants do not accept the concept of a rapture in which some are "taken up into Heaven" before the end of the world; this idea did not exist in the teachings of any Christians whatsoever until the 1800s, so it cannot be said to belong to Apostolic Tradition. Instead, most Catholics and many Protestants interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 literally, and assert that the rapture will immediately follow the general resurrection on Judgment Day, when the living and the newly-resurrected-dead will rise up to meet Christ as he descends from heaven to judge the world. These people consider the rapture to be merely a minor detail in the Biblical description of the Second Coming of Christ.

This is generally my stance on the matter. It wasn't always, but it has been for the last 25 years or so.

This whole matter just isn't one of those "ditches I'm willing to die to defend," so whether my current belief is right or wrong couldn't interest me any less. I just don't see it as important to living my faith, which is what I'm to concern myself with. It will be when it will be, and how it will be, and if God's actions in past history are any indicator, it will be in a way that is utterly unpredictable and different from any way humanity will imagine it.


$0.02
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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M&M's
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Fulla-Carp
Nobody's Sock
Jun 7 2006, 07:01 AM
Yesterday being an ominous date to many, the History channel had an interesting episode dealing with the Antichrist and the prophecies from the books of Daniel and Revelations.

According to this show, the Rapture, (where all Christians ascend to heaven like Elijah), is never mentioned in the bible. The bible only states that the Antichrist will preside over 7 years of nastiness on Earth, followed by Christ returning and conquering Satan and then a 1000 years of peace and good times on Earth.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that all believers will first be whisked away to heaven before these 7 years of woe occur.

What are your thoughts and beliefs on this matter and if you do believe in the Rapture, what is the basis for this belief?

It does mention the rapture, in the beginning of Revelations. I'll have to wait till I get home to elaborate on this more to consult my Bible.

My child shows GOOD CHARACTERIZATION in an ongoing game of D&D
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John speaks of two resurrections, even as he speaks of two deaths.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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The 89th Key
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Dewey
Jun 7 2006, 04:40 PM
bachophile
Jun 7 2006, 12:20 PM
Most Roman Catholics and many Protestants do not accept the concept of a rapture in which some are "taken up into Heaven" before the end of the world; this idea did not exist in the teachings of any Christians whatsoever until the 1800s, so it cannot be said to belong to Apostolic Tradition. Instead, most Catholics and many Protestants interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 literally, and assert that the rapture will immediately follow the general resurrection on Judgment Day, when the living and the newly-resurrected-dead will rise up to meet Christ as he descends from heaven to judge the world. These people consider the rapture to be merely a minor detail in the Biblical description of the Second Coming of Christ.

This is generally my stance on the matter. It wasn't always, but it has been for the last 25 years or so.

This whole matter just isn't one of those "ditches I'm willing to die to defend," so whether my current belief is right or wrong couldn't interest me any less. I just don't see it as important to living my faith, which is what I'm to concern myself with. It will be when it will be, and how it will be, and if God's actions in past history are any indicator, it will be in a way that is utterly unpredictable and different from any way humanity will imagine it.


$0.02

Yeah, the only real thing I'm worried about regarding rapture, is whether or not to put on this bumper sticker... ^_^

Posted Image
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Dewey
Jun 7 2006, 12:40 PM


This whole matter just isn't one of those "ditches I'm willing to die to defend," so whether my current belief is right or wrong couldn't interest me any less. I just don't see it as important to living my faith, which is what I'm to concern myself with. It will be when it will be, and how it will be, and if God's actions in past history are any indicator, it will be in a way that is utterly unpredictable and different from any way humanity will imagine it.


$0.02

That has to be about the wisest thing I've read in a long time.

It might help that I agree with it totally.



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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jun 7 2006, 12:20 PM
oh boy, seems its always up to me to explain these things to u christian folk...


hardly, but thanks

:P

My theology is dispensational and I do believe in a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church.

FWIW, the passages relating to the doctrine of the rapture are in 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians and those who hold to this theology believe that the second coming of Christ is a separate and later event.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Of course, if you'd like to get ready for the Rapture, there is:

http://www.raptureready.com/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
bachophile
Jun 7 2006, 01:20 PM
oh boy, seems its always up to me to explain these things to u christian folk...

Considering the Jews started the whole things about people being taken up into heaven, I should hope you'd be able to explain it to us. :wink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jun 7 2006, 01:23 PM
Rapture Index of 85 and Below: Slow prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 85 to 110: Moderate prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 110 to 145: Heavy prophetic activity
Rapture Index above 145: Fasten your seat belts


so we are at 157...

im buckled up....

i wonder how they measure that.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
musicasacra
Jun 7 2006, 02:37 PM
bachophile
Jun 7 2006, 01:23 PM
Rapture Index of 85 and Below:  Slow prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 85 to 110:    Moderate prophetic activity
Rapture Index of 110 to 145:    Heavy prophetic activity
Rapture Index above 145:        Fasten your seat belts


so we are at 157...

im buckled up....

i wonder how they measure that.

with an Ezekiel-o-meter(tm).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
ivorythumper
Jun 7 2006, 01:42 PM

with an Ezekiel-o-meter(tm).

(If Revelations was a cheesy sci-fi movie:)

Doc, doc! Get a load of this!

What is it, Jerry?

It's the Ezekiel-o-meter, sir! It's getting readings off the charts!

EGADS! It's reading 7.7 Daniels!!

Jesus!

I know, it's never been that high before.

[points] No, I mean, there He is!






I'm sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. We now return to your regularly scheduled TNCR thread. :no:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
BTW, just a friendly reminder...

Posted Image

Please note the title. Save the "S" for Superman's chest. :lol:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I just can't make sense of any of it.. the Israelites are God's chosen folk.. but come the rapture, most of them are SOOO screwed.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
thats ok. im not losing sleep.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
The rapture nothing but pure superstition. Unmitigated hogwash based on a literalist [rationalistic] interpretation of ancient texts.
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