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Here's What Pisses Me Off About Iraq
Topic Started: Jun 1 2006, 09:25 AM (517 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
One word: Iran.

Because of the Iraq war, we are hamstrung in dealing with Iran. We don't have the troops, and Lil' Bush has squandered his moral authority on a war without end, so he doesn't have the moral force to launch a (conventional) war against Iran.

As between Saddam's Iraq and present-day Iran, I think Iran is a far greater threat to our national security. But we can't do a damn thing about it because Lil' Bush is too busy fighting the wrong war.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
It will be interesting to see what happens from the new decision for Iran to stop its enrichment facilities.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
QuirtEvans
Jun 1 2006, 01:25 PM
One word: Iran.

Because of the Iraq war, we are hamstrung in dealing with Iran. We don't have the troops, and Lil' Bush has squandered his moral authority on a war without end, so he doesn't have the moral force to launch a (conventional) war against Iran.

As between Saddam's Iraq and present-day Iran, I think Iran is a far greater threat to our national security. But we can't do a damn thing about it because Lil' Bush is too busy fighting the wrong war.

I've heard it claimed that the war in Iraq was all a cunning plan to get troops in the vicinity of Iran, since Bush and his boys always knew this was going to happen, what with them being the greatest military tacticians since Guderian and everything.

Yeah, right. Maybe his crystal ball was calibrated using technology from Area 51, or maybe the Churchillian voices in his head told him. Or maybe it's BS.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Bush and his boys


I'm afraid that the common meaning of this term would preclude any ability at forethought.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
An invasion of Iran never has been and never will be in the cards. That would be a big mistake and would make invading Iraq look like a birthday party. Having our forces positioned on both sides of them puts a lot of pressure on them in other ways. We have the ability to strike deep within Iran with far greater force and more swiftly than was ever possible before. They know that. We don't have to invade Iran to give them major headaches but we do need a presence in their immediate vicinity.

Have none of you ever played chess? Or even poker?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
JBryan
Jun 1 2006, 01:43 PM
An invasion of Iran never has been and never will be in the cards. That would be a big mistake and would make invading Iraq look like a birthday party. Having our forces positioned on both sides of them puts a lot of pressure on them in other ways. We have the ability to strike deep within Iran with far greater force and more swiftly than was ever possible before. They know that. We don't have to invade Iran to give them major headaches but we do need a presence in their immediate vicinity.

Have none of you ever played chess? Or even poker?

I'm actually quite good at Chess. I can't, however, see, 25 moves into the future. In fact, not even Kasparov manages that before the endgame starts, and this is not the endgame.

Did Reagan have any forces in the vicinity when he bombed Libya? As far as I can recall, the jets took off from the UK.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Lil' Bush isn't smart enough to beat my 8 year-old at chess. The one that's good at it, anyway.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree with your assessment, Quirt. I am worried about that, too.

I don't believe that the negotations of the European Union (and others) have a realistic chance of success because unfortunately none of the governments here is willing to bring a military option into the negotiations.

Many "anti-war" governments in Europe, which (in part) are still in charge today, have only been elected due to opposition in the population against the Iraq war. For example, our former Chancellor Schroeder blundered basically in every imaginable way during his first 4 years (1998-2002). The only reason why he was re-elected in 2002 was because of his opposition to the Iraq war. I am sure we would have a very different political landscape (e.g., more conservative governments) in Europe if the Iraq war had not happened. These governments would also be much more willing to do something effective about the situation in Iraq.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
Did Reagan have any forces in the vicinity when he bombed Libya? As far as I can recall, the jets took off from the UK.


Yes they did. And theyy had to fly for sevearl hours refuelling on flight. They were limited in the amount anbd types of ordnance they could use as well as the types of aircraft. It was long range mission against a sparsely populated country with little in the way of air defense. It could omnly conceivably been pullled off once. Need I continue.

The leaders of Iran know that our ability to strike effectively and repeatedly has been enhanced by an order of magnitude. Some may argue that Afghanistan would have given us all that but that ignores the long term. Afghanistan, even a democratic Afghanistan, is a poor country and probably always will be. Iraq could end up being a powerful ally aginst Iran with our help.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Jun 1 2006, 12:55 PM
Lil' Bush isn't smart enough to beat my 8 year-old at chess. The one that's good at it, anyway.

A comment high up on the snarkiness scale but falls well short with regard to thoughtfullness.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Jun 1 2006, 09:43 AM
An invasion of Iran never has been and never will be in the cards. That would be a big mistake and would make invading Iraq look like a birthday party. Having our forces positioned on both sides of them puts a lot of pressure on them in other ways. We have the ability to strike deep within Iran with far greater force and more swiftly than was ever possible before. They know that. We don't have to invade Iran to give them major headaches but we do need a presence in their immediate vicinity.

Have none of you ever played chess? Or even poker?

Actually, I guess Saddam, if he would still be in charge, would have put much more pressure on Iran...

Ahmadinedschad knows all too well that the US is currently too weak to do something about him. I am sure he laughs up his sleeve about how the Iraq war went.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
We are too weak to do anything about him? Are you serious?

Saddam was not much of a threat to Iran, a much more powerful country under the circumstance that prevailed. Reference my comment on the relative difficulty in invading Iran as opposed to Iraq. Even if Saddam could be a counter to Iraq he was beyond our control which was a useless situation for us especially with regard to the other players in the region. Besides, he was just crazy enough to try to invade Iran again or vice versa. No telling what things would have looked like when the dust settled.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
An Iran invasion would actually be similar to our experience in Vietnam. Actually, worse. You would have almost the entire population in cahoots with an insurgency and probably have more than half actively participating in the insurgency itself.

I would agree with JBryan on this and would not be all that surprised if one of the unspoken reasons to topple Saddam was in order to be in a better position to counter Iran (an axis of evil from way back) because we have known all along they were shaping up to be the next North Korea.

(Though who would have thought that they were going to elect a President to outdo Kim Jong Il?)
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Jun 1 2006, 10:15 AM
We are too weak to do anything about him? Are you serious?

Yes. But I don't refer (only) to military strength.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kincaid
Jun 1 2006, 10:26 AM
I would agree with JBryan on this and would not be all that surprised if one of the unspoken reasons to topple Saddam was in order to be in a better position to counter Iran (an axis of evil from way back) because we have known all along they were shaping up to be the next North Korea.

This sounds like a valid reason to attack a country.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Attack, yes. Invade and occupy, no. In fact, we may find ourselves attacking Iran quite a bit over the next several years.

Though I would argue the best thing would be sanctions and other means to slow down their progress on the nuclear front. Meanwhile, we should do other things that would encourage their young population to throw off the repressive Theocracy and insist on a peaceful, prosperous future.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
What's even worse is that Iran is now THE power in this area. Like Hussein or not, at least he was a check on Iran and Iran did not have allies in the Iraqi government. Iran is the real winner in the Iraq War and the US is the real loser.

It's a helluva a mess Bush has created.

But then, all of this was laid out by many people in the run-up to the war. However, Bush's lust for this war ensured he did not hear it.

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Kincaid wrote
 
(Though who would have thought that they were going to elect a President to outdo Kim Jong Il?)


I know what you are saying but...

No comparison between Kim Jong Il and Ahmadinejad as to their personal hold on power. Kim Jong Il inherited a totalitarian personal hold of power based on his father's Stalinist model. As president of Iran, Ahmadinejad has limited official and personal power. The real political power in Iran rests with the Ayahtollahs who make up the Islamic Council. If necessary the Council can rid the country of Ahmadinejad at the snap of a finger. The North Korean Politburo or Central Committee has no such power to counter Kim Jong Il.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Rick, If Iran is "the power in the region" what is stopping them from just moving into Iraq and taking it over? It's not like they haven't been wanting to.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Regarding Kim Jong Il v. Ahmadinejad, AC's post is a bit reassuring. I find the Ayatollahs to be a bit more pragmatic and trust that they would have their finger on any button rather than some loon. Thanks for the reminder.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Jun 1 2006, 10:44 AM
Rick, If Iran is "the power in the region" what is stopping them from just moving into Iraq and taking it over? It's not like they haven't been wanting to.

They have never wanted to "take over Iraq"; the cause for the Iraq-Iran war was the quarrel about Chuzestan and a couple of other reasons.

From their perspective, it would also be very dumb to attack Iraq now. Time is working for them, not against them.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Why is time working for them? Iraq is well on its way to being stable and secure and the pressure against Iran only increases. It seems to me that time is something they need (and are trying to buy) more of.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
JBryan
Jun 1 2006, 10:56 AM
Iraq is well on its way to being stable and secure....

Do you honestly believe this?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Yes, I do.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
JBryan
Jun 1 2006, 10:44 AM
Rick, If Iran is "the power in the region" what is stopping them from just moving into Iraq and taking it over? It's not like they haven't been wanting to.

Why would you assume they want to invade and occupy Iraq simply because they are the power in the region? Not every nation sees a need to do this to get its way.

Hell, they've got Cheney's and Rumsfeld's buddy Chalabi and their Shiite allies to exert whatever influence they need to have to keep Iraq in line.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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