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Haditha Killings
Topic Started: May 30 2006, 01:49 PM (408 Views)
Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
What do you think about it? I've read some comments that compared its potential influence to the My Lai massacre. Currently I know too little about it to have an opinion.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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The 89th Key
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Is it bad, I've never heard of what you're talking about? What are the haditha killings? Link?
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AlbertaCrude
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Haditha Kilings
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Oh ok, I have heard of it...but didn't know it was called that. Yes, I must research as well. The needless killings of innocent citizens is horrible. Reminds me of the helicopter scene in Full Metal Jacket... :(
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't have enough details to speak specifically, but in general, every war will have instances where otherwise good and rational people will snap in a moments of anger and hurt, and do insanely inhumane things. Every war, no matter how just or "reasonable," places people at, and occasionally beyond, that snapping point. That's one of the reasons why the decision to go to war is so difficult: no matter how justified or how crucial the war is, it will inevitably result in the deaths of not only our own soldiers, and not only enemy combatants, but civilians and innocent bystanders. It will never be a "pure" decision.

Regardless of the level of pinpoint accuracy of "smart weapons," and regardless of the level of training of the troops, this kind of thing will always happen in war. Even pointing out how rare it occurs in a given war, or by a given army, can't eliminate the fact that if we are to grant that war is sometimes justified, that these kinds of occurrences will be part of engaging in warfare. And if we feel that the war is justified, we must be willing to accept the reality that these events are as inevitable as they are tragic.

Because these events are, by definition, part of the reality of war, they cannot with any intellectual honesty be used as an argument that this particular war is wrong or unjust. Whether it is or isn't is another argument entirely. No matter how tragic the occurrence is, all that it does mean, is that this is a war.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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QuirtEvans
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Quote:
 
Because these events are, by definition, part of the reality of war, they cannot with any intellectual honesty be used as an argument that this particular war is wrong or unjust. Whether it is or isn't is another argument entirely.


I can agree with that part.

Quote:
 
No matter how tragic the occurrence is, all that it does mean, is that this is a war.


But not that.

Shooting a four year-old in the head isn't a part of war. At least, it shouldn't be.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Rick Zimmer
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Klaus
May 30 2006, 01:49 PM
What do you think about it? I've read some comments that compared its potential influence to the My Lai massacre. Currently I know too little about it to have an opinion.

Whether it will have the same far-reaching effects as the My Lai massacres remains to be seen, of course.

We should not be surprised when these types of things happen in war -- even as we condemn them. Teach people to kill, then place them in a situation where people are trying to kill them, intensify the emotions to where they are legitimately in fear for their own lives, place them in a country where they cannot tell who the enemy is and then let something like this happen -- an over reaction should not be surprising to anyone.

What shoud be surprising is how seldom it happens, which attests to the professionalism of American troops.

Having said that, as the Iraqi people factor this into all of the other bad they see occuring since the US invaded and occupied, and this will only intensify the anger and hatred that is growing in that country against the American presence.

It will also, of course, be used by Al Quaeda and other jihadists to further inflame the masses and to recruit additional terrorists.

Just another nail in the coffin that Bush is building for us in the Muslim world.

(As an aside, i can't believe that Bush learned about this in the press -- Bush Learned of Haditha Deaths From Press. It shows just how detached he is from what is really going on over there.)
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
If we accept that atrocities committed by our own troops are inevitable, or in some way acceptable because of circumstance then I believe that we have lost this war.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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I wasn't discussing what war should be, Quirt, I was discussing what it actually is - and always has been. If we are to make an intelligent decision to go to war, or not go to war, we have to know exactly what the options really entail. And there is nothing that we can do - not even us "good" Americans - that can completely eliminate this reality from warfare. Fight like hell to minimize it, and deal with those who perpetrate it - but it has occurred in every war to date, and will occur in every war in the future.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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The 89th Key
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Rick,

Quote:
 
Having said that, as the Iraqi people factor this into all of the other bad they see occuring since the US invaded and occupied


:lol: :lol:

I think I have a photoshop project to work on tonight.... :devil: :devil:
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QuirtEvans
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Fight like hell to minimize it, and deal with those who perpetrate it


I can agree with that. And, if what you're saying is that it's impossible to excise evil from the world, I agree with that too. All we can do is be vigilant and deal with it when it occurs ... and make very clear that we won't tolerate it.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 30 2006, 02:16 PM
If we accept that atrocities committed by our own troops are inevitable, or in some way acceptable because of circumstance then I believe that we have lost this war.

John, I have never said that they were acceptable - but they are inevitable to some degree, for exactly the reasons Rick pointed out a few posts above.

Don't misunderstand my point. I'm sickened by the reports. But I'm not shocked that they occur occasionally, based on the tensions, fears, and emotions, coupled with training to kill and available weaponry. As Rick said, the fact that it is so rare is a testament to the excellent training of our military.

I've said two things:

1. The existence of this event cannot be realistically used as evidence of the iraq War being wrong. These things have occurred in every war, "good" or "bad". They are, unfortunately, a part of the definition of war itself.

2. Anyone who would support the decision to engage in the Iraq war must do so with the full realization that awful things like this are inevitable to at least some small degree. And while we must work to make these kids of things as rare as possible, it makes no sense to support a war wearing rose-colored glasses. I understand the moral mudhole that this reality makes of any decision to go to war, and I still believe this war is just.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Oh, I think atrocities are inevitable.

By most any side, in any war.

When your buddies have been dying, and you are on your second or third combat tour, your life means a whole lot. Other people's lives mean little. I think it is the inevitable scarring of the soul that happens when killing becomes your business.

You get a little mean, you get a little hard. You get to the point where you can walk by a napalm-burnt body, place a smoking cigarette between a pair of charred lips and think it is the funniest thing in the world.

Maybe it's just a defense mechanism of the pysche, I don't know.

I went to school with a guy who served in 'Nam. His platoon was on patrol one day when it walked into a small village. The mamasans waved, the kids milled around, pigs and chickens darted across the path. Normal village, normal day.

About a quarter-click or so away from the village, the platoon got mortared...the shells coming from the village they just passed through. Several of my schoolmate's friends died that day, until they got a Sandy in there to shoot the place up.

After the mortar rounds quit falling, the platoon left their dead, walked back into what was left of the village, and killed everything breathing - right down to the pigs and chickens in the village.

It's not right. It will never be right.

But sometimes it is understandable...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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QuirtEvans
May 30 2006, 02:26 PM
Quote:
 
Fight like hell to minimize it, and deal with those who perpetrate it


I can agree with that. And, if what you're saying is that it's impossible to excise evil from the world, I agree with that too. All we can do is be vigilant and deal with it when it occurs ... and make very clear that we won't tolerate it.

Yes. It is the same human shortcomings that lead two combatants to the precipice of war, that will ensure that things like this will occur in the prosecution of war. If humans were all truly good and moral, and had the perfect knowledge, wisdom, love, and control of emotion required to completely avoid events like Haditha, there would have been no war to begin with.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
As a side note, did any of you see the A&E network documentary on "Lima Company?" I caught parts of it twice over the weekend. It follows a group of reservists (most coming from the small towns right around me), who have suffered particularly bad losses in Iraq. Among other things, it deals with this exact issue. It is gripping and moving television; if it is on again, do not miss it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
OK, Dewey and Jolly, I should re-phrase what I said, as you're both right, the atrocity is almost inevitable. What we need to beware of is attempting to excuse it, whatever the justification, since if we do we can never hope to win over the Iraqi population. If they perceive us as the enemy, then we have lost. You can't beat a population by force of arms, just an army.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
At the end of basic training, and at the commencement of any tour of duty in a hostile theater, every soldier ought to be given a seminar about the reality of war.

If not for the truly noble aspect of justice, then for the sake of the pragmatic: don't kill civilians intentionally: you will be found out, you will be courtmartialed, you will turn public opinion against US, you will give our enemies and others reasons to hate us, you will be working *against* the war effort, and you will bring disgrace to the US.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Rick Zimmer
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ivorythumper
May 30 2006, 09:10 PM
At the end of basic training, and at the commencement of any tour of duty in a hostile theater, every soldier ought to be given a seminar about the reality of war.

If not for the truly noble aspect of justice, then for the sake of the pragmatic: don't kill civilians intentionally: you will be found out, you will be courtmartialed, you will turn public opinion against US, you will give our enemies and others reasons to hate us, you will be working *against* the war effort, and you will bring disgrace to the US.

While I agree with you, thumps, I think you are assuming that a rational decision was made here -- that these soldier thought this through before they did what they did.

I'll bet they did not. I'll bet this all happened so fast that no thought was given to what they were actually doing or the consequences. They were likely reacting solely on fear, anger, terror, confusion and a few other such emotions.

And, of course, we send these soldiers back for two, three or more tours in a short period of time, with little chance to regain themselves or their sanity, because of inadequate planning and an inability to anticipate what the results of the invasion would be, including a virulent violent reaction and the increasing animosity of the Iraqis towards these soldeirs. A human being can only take so much before they break.

This does not mean they should not be held accountable; they should. But I am not sure that even if they had received the type of training you suggest, they would have reacted any differently given all of the circumstances they were faced with.

I think, however, that this is one reason why we need to be very concerned by the way the US military is reducing its standards for recruits just to meet their recruitment quotas. The lower the standards, the more likely this sort of thing is going to occur more often.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Yes, I agree Rick. I would hope that more training and support will go toward diminishing these sorts of incidents. As you point out, the fact that these occurances are fewer than might be expected (and certainly set against past wars) is a very good thing and shows the level of professionalism among our troops.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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