Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
More Disintegration of US Position in Afghanistan
Topic Started: May 29 2006, 12:13 PM (428 Views)
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Looks like we Americans are far from being loved as "liberators" in Afghanistan. How long until we see the same thing in Iraq?

Maybe we need to stop justifying Bush's penchant for war based on the supposedly good things we have done in Afghanistan and Iraq, if the people themselves do not see us as doing much good.

Maybe even if we want to "liberate," we need to stop thinking we can then stick around to recreate a society as we want it.

From the New York Times (and reported in a variety of places)

Afghans Riot After Deadly Crash by U.S. Military Truck

By CARLOTTA GALL
Published: May 29, 2006

KABUL, Afghanistan, May 29 — Thousands of angry demonstrators rioted across the Afghan capital today after an American military truck crashed into a dozen cars on the north side of town, killing and wounding several people.

Gunfire rang out across the city as the police and army soldiers tried to control the violence while rioters rampaged through the streets burning and looting a dozen offices, cars and police posts. At least 14 people were dead and scores injured by the end of the day, hospital officials said.

The Ministry of Interior announced a curfew for the city from 10 p.m. until 4 a.m. local time for the first time in four years, and appealed to the people to assist the security forces. President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan called for calm on national television, and an American military spokesman and the Afghan Interior Ministry both issued statements promising full investigations into the accident.

A number of people were treated in hospitals for gunshot wounds, as the American military, police officers and army soldiers fired into the air to disperse the crowds. Among the dead were a 7-year-old boy, and two more children were also badly injured, according to a duty doctor at Khair Khana hospital in the northern part of Kabul.

Four people died at the hospital and 60 wounded people were being given first aid before being transferred, the doctor said. A count around other hospitals in the city gave a total of 14 people dead, and at least 90 wounded.

The violence began early this morning when an American military convoy smashed into 12 cars as it came down a long hill from the Khair Khana pass on the north side of the city. At least one civilian was killed and six wounded in the multiple crashes, the American military said in a statement. A large cargo truck "apparently experienced a mechanical failure," the military said.

"This was a tragic incident, and we deeply regret any deaths or injuries resulting from this incident," the military statement said.

An angry crowd gathered and began stoning the American convoy and then Afghan police officers when they arrived at the scene. There are indications that soldiers in at least one military vehicle fired warning shots over the crowd.

"We will determine the facts regarding the incident and cooperate fully with Afghan authorities," the military statement said.

But demonstrators and townspeople said the American truck driver had deliberately rammed the cars as he led the convoy through outlying villages and then into the city.

One demonstrator, who said his name was Ahmadullah, was still shouting "Death to Karzai," and "Death to America" hours after the initial incident.

"These Americans came to our country and they are doing this kind of thing in my country, and our government is also their servant and a puppet of the Americans," he cried out to a crowd of people. "We are against America; all Afghans are against them."

A young man named Fraidoon was among the demonstrators who angrily gathered in the center of town. "The Americans came all the way from Bagram to Kabul and killed about 20 people along the way," he said, referring to the American Air Force base at Bagram. "That's why we started a demonstration and came here."

Fraidoon and other bystanders asserted that up to a dozen demonstrators were shot by guards as they tried to break into a compound belonging to a British security company.

Some demonstrators tried to reach the United States embassy compound across town, but were prevented by armed blockades of Afghan police officers and army soldiers, while others attacked buildings in the commercial center of the city. Some demonstrators reached and television company and pizzeria in the southwest of the city.

By late this afternoon, the crowds had dispersed, leaving people to count the casualties and put out the fires. The offices of the relief organization CARE International, a French engineering nongovernmental organization known as Acted, a pizzeria, a Chinese guesthouse and a district post office were among the compounds that were gutted by fire and ransacked. The newly opened Serena Hotel, Kabul's first five-star hotel, had its ground floor windows smashed, and traffic police officers sat outside burnt roadside police posts.

"Most of the demonstrators are people who have lost their jobs and the government cannot provide the people with the basic necessities," said Mukhtar Ziayee, 33, a property dealer. "The people are disappointed."
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lb1
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Rick,

Do you get your rocks off when you read things like this?

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
lb1
May 29 2006, 01:07 PM
Rick,

Do you get your rocks off when you read things like this?

lb

Do you have a comment about what is happening?

Do you have doubts about the wisdom of what Bush is doing?

Do you reject all of this anger at the US as meaningless and not worthy of our consideration?

Or do you just raise questions about those who see folly in what Bush has done?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The 89th Key
Member Avatar

Based on Rick's posting history, I bet that Rick looks forward to more stories about protests against the USA compared to stories about successful elections.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lb1
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
I see one mentally warped SOB that is so filled with hate for Bush, that he gets his rock off when American soldiers are killed so he can gloat.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
lb1
May 29 2006, 01:19 PM
I see one mentally warped SOB that is so filled with hate for Bush, that he gets his rock off when American soldiers are killed so he can gloat.

lb

If that's what you see, then so be it.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lb1
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Today is Memorial Day Rick, a time to honor our Dead soldiers, not do a gleeful dance because they were killed.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
lb1
May 29 2006, 01:22 PM
Today is Memorial Day Rick, a time to honor our Dead soldiers, not do a gleeful dance because they were killed.

lb

Or perhaps a day to honor them by making sure future deaths are not brought about by tragically wrong policies.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lb1
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Rick,

Your rhetoric is disgusting, but to do it today is dispicable. You are no better that that radical group WBC that goes to soldiers funerals and protest

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
lb1
May 29 2006, 01:53 PM
Rick,

Your rhetoric is disgusting, but to do it today is dispicable. You are no better that that radical group WBC that goes to soldiers funerals and protest

lb

At some point, lb, it would be good if you were to consider the validity of the policies which brought about these deaths.

Attack me all you want; but there are serious issues to be addressed as evidenced in the article I posted.

When you are ready to talk these issues through, I'll be happy to do so with you. But if all you really want to do is throw barbs at me, there is little left for us to talk about in this thread.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
I unconditionally support NATO's role in Afghanistan, and specifically the sacrifice Canadian troops are making there- indeed just this weekend we buried a female Canadian Artillery Captain killed in combat against Taliban fanatics near Khandahar 10 days ago.

The only disintegration I see is the moral disintegration that is coming from bleeding hearts who fail to see the absolute necessity of an active foreign military presence in the country.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
I agree with lb - Rick's post is disgusting. But most of what he posts is disgusting.

The article describes a scene reminescent of New Orleans after Katrina. All the welfare recipients out taking advantage of the chaos to create even more chaos. Anyone who can't see that there will *always* be a small group out of the larger group who take advantage of things like this is a fool. Anyone who thinks it is indicative of any sort of policy decisions made is equally a fool.

Rick, you are what I refer to as "educated beyond your intelligence". You lack wisdom, and you lack balance. You should be ashamed for picking today of all days to trash talk.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Radu
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
Larry
May 30 2006, 01:38 AM
Rick, you are what I refer to as "educated beyond your intelligence". You lack wisdom, and you lack balance. You should be ashamed for picking today of all days to trash talk.

Shame ? Self haters have no shame !
Posted Image
------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Radu
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
Rick Zimmer
May 29 2006, 11:13 PM
Looks like we Americans are far from being loved as "liberators" in Afghanistan. How long until we see the same thing in Iraq?


No one needs their love ! There was a problem there and the Americans were brave enough to do something about it . Not to get some doubtful love, but to serve American and Western interests. The same for Iraq.

The actions must be judged by their results - did they serve the American and West interests ?

US did not enter WWII to acquire eternal love from Europeans. They helped Churchill and reacted to the Japanese attacks. They did not bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to gain japanese love but to end a war and stop the American casualties.

Posted Image
------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Radu
May 30 2006, 06:00 AM
No one needs their love ! There was a problem there and the Americans were brave enough to do something about it . Not to get some doubtful love, but to serve American and Western interests. The same for Iraq.

The actions must be judged by their results - did they serve the American and West interests ?

Well, at least your not claiming we did this all out of some sort of altruistic motive for the peoples of Afghanistan or Iraq and showing us pictures of happy school children implying that they are the reason we ventured into either of these places.

Please make this point again the next time someone raises the issue of all the "good things" we are doing for the Afganis or the Iraqis to justify our being there. Remind these people we did not go there for the Afganis or Iraqis. Bush's goal was purely self-serving.

As for serving our interests -- no, the abandonment of the goal in Afghanistan did not serve our interests and the continuing disintegration of the situation there certainly is not serving our interests but simply bogging us down in another war we cannot win.

As for Iraq, no that did not and does not serve our interests either. Just another quagmire created by the arrogance that the US can do what it wants and to hell with the people we are doing it to.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
As for serving our interests -- no, the abandonment of the goal in Afghanistan did not serve our interests and the continuing disintegration of the situation there certainly is not serving our interests but simply bogging us down in another war we cannot win.

As for Iraq, no that did not and does not serve our interests either. Just another quagmire created by the arrogance that the US can do what it wants and to hell with the people we are doing it to.


This blind spot you have in understanding the situation is why you will *never* know what the hell is going on over there.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Rick Zimmer
May 30 2006, 07:12 AM
As for serving our interests -- no, the abandonment of the goal in Afghanistan did not serve our interests and the continuing disintegration of the situation there certainly is not serving our interests but simply bogging us down in another war we cannot win.


Nobody has abandoned anything in Afghanistan. The goal was to depose the Taliban, strike Al Qaeda at the source, put into place a constitutional and representative government and remain there so long as is necessary to stabilize the place. The first three have been accomplished- the fourth remains in progress. If it takes another 10 or 20 years of occupation then that is a small price to pay to ensure that the lunatic fringe of Islam is as far away from the reins of state power as possible.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Quote:
 
Well, at least your not claiming we did this all out of some sort of altruistic motive for the peoples of Afghanistan or Iraq and showing us pictures of happy school children implying that they are the reason we ventured into either of these places.


I've not seen anyone make that claim.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
AlbertaCrude
May 30 2006, 07:34 AM
Rick Zimmer
May 30 2006, 07:12 AM
As for serving our interests -- no, the abandonment of the goal in Afghanistan did not serve our interests and the continuing disintegration of the situation there certainly is not serving our interests but simply bogging us down in another war we cannot win.


Nobody has abandoned anything in Afghanistan. The goal was to depose the Taliban, strike Al Qaeda at the source, put into place a constitutional and representative government and remain there so long as is necessary to stabilize the place. The first three have been accomplished- the fourth remains in progress. If it takes another 10 or 20 years of occupation then that is a small price to pay to ensure that the lunatic fringe of Islam is as far away from the reins of state power as possible.

I understand there is growing opposition to Canada's participation there and that a majority of Canadians are now opposed to any long term involvement. I also understand that couple of high level military people involved in Afghanistan are saying Canada's involvement will be lengthy; one have said at least 10 years another having said as much as 25 years.

Apparently Harper is facing the same sort of credibility problem now that Bush is facing, even though Harper is new to the job.

Is this your reading as well?

As for the goals -- while the Taliban has been removed from power, they have not been removed completely and the lack of the US's commitment to finish the job when Bush turned his attention to Iraq has allowed them to regroup and they are gaining increasing power and influence in the southern part of the country. Bush forgot that if you are going to strike at the king, you have to kill him.

Al Quaeda is clearly not on the run and continues to function. Osama should be behind bars and the headquarters of the organization destroyed. Not only was this not accomplished, but Bush's inability to stay focused allowed them to retrench and refortify their positions.

As for the establishment of a new government -- obviously, bvased on what is happening there, a government was imposed but it is simply being propped up by the force of American and NATO power. It has no legitimacy on its own.

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Yes our top level leaders acknowledge Canada's active NATO committment in Afghanistan will be long term - at least 10 years.

But no it is not my reading of the situation. It is not affecting the Harper government's credibility in any way.

Like I said, I unconditionally support our military presence there.

Regardless of your opinion of the Iraq adventure, you ought to show similar unconditional support for US troops in Afghanistan. You seem to forget that it was as much the Taliban as it was Al Qaeda that attacked US soil on 9/11. Our NATO ally was attacked and we [Canada] stepped up to the plate in support of our ally.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nina
Senior Carp
One of my beefs with the war in Iraq was that it turned attention (and money and troops) away from the situation in Afghanistan.

I think we missed an opportunity to tame a lion in Afghanistan by swatting at an annoying gnat in Iraq.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
AlbertaCrude
May 30 2006, 08:48 AM
Regardless of your opinion of the Iraq adventure, you ought to show similar unconditional support for US troops in Afghanistan. You seem to forget that it was as much the Taliban as it was Al Qaeda that attacked US soil on 9/11. Our NATO ally was attacked and we [Canada] stepped up to the plate in support of our ally.

When have you ever heard me say anything negative about the troops in Afganistan or Iraq?

I have criticized Bush relentlessly for his policies and how he has implemented them and for the debacle that is unfolding as a result of them.

But I have NEVER criticized the troops at all.

As for remembering who attacked us on 9/11, I have been extremely forthcoming many times on here in my condemnation of Bush for not adequately protecting us and for not going after the true enemy here. I have said that over and over. Indeed, in the post I made that you are respnding to, I have said it again. He has totally botched this country's response to the Taliban and Al Quaeda and has not done what needs to be done.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Rick Zimmer
May 30 2006, 09:28 AM
As for remembering who attacked us on 9/11, I have been extremely forthcoming many times on here in my condemnation of Bush for not adequately protecting us and for not going after the true enemy here.

Who? The bleeding hearts who don't like the sight of soldiers with guns? All I can is that you along with them can go ahead and bleed.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
ZetaBoards gives you all the tools to create a successful discussion community.
Learn More · Register Now
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply