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really bad move by my local diocese
Topic Started: May 28 2006, 08:45 AM (1,199 Views)
apple
one of the angels
i know this guy - he's a wonderful musician and singer

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/stat...el=kansas_state
it behooves me to behold
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Closed minds are not a good thing.

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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The Catholic Church cannot hold the belief that homosexuality is inherently, Biblically wrong, and have leadership people within the Church flaunt the rules.

If you put a loaded gun to your head, and pull the trigger, it goes BANG!.

I feel sorry for the gentleman, but what did he expect?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Nina
Senior Carp
He expected to be treated as he had been for eight years.

"The leadership at the archdiocese changed last year. In January, Nadeau said he was informed that his membership in a "gay-affirming" group kept him from living out church doctrine."

I guess if he'd thrown rocks at the choir, or stood up and called them all names, that would have been more in line with the new leadership. I doubt that it would have been more in line with church doctrine, though.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Nina
May 28 2006, 11:32 AM
He expected to be treated as he had been for eight years.

"The leadership at the archdiocese changed last year. In January, Nadeau said he was informed that his membership in a "gay-affirming" group kept him from living out church doctrine."

I guess if he'd thrown rocks at the choir, or stood up and called them all names, that would have been more in line with the new leadership.  I doubt that it would have been more in line with church doctrine, though.

I'm sorry, but your opinion does not change the facts.

There is a religious affiliated college down here currently culling its staff. Most of this revolves around morality clauses in their contracts, primarily concerning drinking in public (restaurant, bar, etc.) Since the college holds that this is inherently wrong, they have the right to terminate employment.

The Catholic Church has a clear position on homosexuality. Just because one bishop decided to turn his head, doesn't mean the next one will. Furthermore, it appears as if the gentleman went out of his way to draw attention to his sexual orientation.

If you break the rules, and then make durn sure your employer knows about it, what do you expect?

As I said, I feel sorry for him.

But you are a HR person...what part of his behavior does not necessitate a Loudermil(sp?) Letter?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Nina
Senior Carp
The Loudermill Letter isn't required if a contract is being terminated without renewal on its normal termination date.

It has nothing to do with his behavior. It's the nature of his employment in this case. The diocese is legally entitled to let him go, technically. They aren't even firing him, they're just not renewing his contract.

Whether it's a good decision, or even a moral one, is up for debate. Bet you can guess which side I land on. :)

What if he had hid his affiliation with the gay men's choir. Would he still be entitled to keep his job?

At least in the article, there's no mention of this man "acting on" his homosexual nature--which was, I thought, a bright line in Catholic doctrine. He's affiliating with gay men in a choir, they're not conducting homosexual acts or anything. Is the mere act of acknowledging gayness against church doctrine? (I feel compelled to mention that in this case it's Catholic church doctrine, not all Christian church doctrine).
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M&M's
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Fulla-Carp
Nina
May 28 2006, 09:32 AM
He expected to be treated as he had been for eight years.

"The leadership at the archdiocese changed last year. In January, Nadeau said he was informed that his membership in a "gay-affirming" group kept him from living out church doctrine."

I guess if he'd thrown rocks at the choir, or stood up and called them all names, that would have been more in line with the new leadership. I doubt that it would have been more in line with church doctrine, though.

That's a load of carp!
My child shows GOOD CHARACTERIZATION in an ongoing game of D&D
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The 89th Key
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Regardless of the issue, the Church should encourage discipline against sinning.

Whether the man had homosexual relations, was a drunk, a womanizer, commits adultery, or picks up prostitutes...the Church can't sit back and encourage them to be leaders in the church.

DO NOT FOCUS on the gay issue. Focus on the "sin" issue. Don't make it personal.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Speaking of bishops who turn their heads, what's Cardinal Law (former Bishop of Boston, now Archpriest of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore) up to nowadays, anyway? Presumably the RC church felt that covering up sexual abuse of rather a large number of under-age males was wrong, before they assigned him to this rather snazzy sounding post?

It's not what you know, it's who you know what you know about that matters.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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apple
one of the angels
M&M's
May 28 2006, 06:59 PM
Nina
May 28 2006, 09:32 AM
He expected to be treated as he had been for eight years.

"The leadership at the archdiocese changed last year. In January, Nadeau said he was informed that his membership in a "gay-affirming" group kept him from living out church doctrine."

I guess if he'd thrown rocks at the choir, or stood up and called them all names, that would have been more in line with the new leadership.  I doubt that it would have been more in line with church doctrine, though.

That's a load of carp!

Actually the old ladies who had done the music before.. always campaigned to have him removed. - they always wanted their jobs back.. they had been removed because they were so nonprofessional and never learned new music and couldn't keep tempo... So phenomenally talented he was.... they never could talk anyone into firing him until they started distributing leaflets on cars and spreading stories. focusin on his 'sin'.

yucky old biddies singin their yucky old songs, sinning in their own little ways and wearing rose perfume.
it behooves me to behold
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Did anyone have a serious problem with this? Was it a hindrance on the services, or were people being d****ebags, and giving the guy a hard time for what they think is a principle? I'm pretty sure it's not our job as mortals to judge the heart of others, and if there's no ruckus caused, let the guy keep his job.

Quote:
 
DO NOT FOCUS on the gay issue. Focus on the "sin" issue. Don't make it personal.


Um, yeah. Tell that to the guy who lost his job. I'm pretty sure for him it's pretty freaking personal, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it or beat around the bush by "focusing on the sin". Y'know, pobody's nerfect. This guy isn't a priest, but he is someone who was performing a service for the church. Obviously he's trying to do good by his religion. Perhaps we should throw out all parishioners who commit sin daily. I think they’d run out of parishioners readyquick.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
What's the point of going to church if it doesn't enable you to look down on other people? :rolleyes:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
John D'Oh
May 28 2006, 06:41 PM
What's the point of going to church if it doesn't enable you to look down on other people? :rolleyes:

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Perfect, John!

:D :D :D :D :D
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
This reminds me of a controversy in our diocese about a year ago.

In one of the local schools, there was a student who lived with her father and his gay spouse. The two started to become active in school, as good parents should. A small minority of parents (it is always a small minority) got quite concerned and eventually went to the Bishop asking that the child be romoved from school and if not that, at least the two parents not be allowed to become active.

The Bishop refused their request. He said if he was going to remove children from school or bar parents because of some intransigence against the fullness of Catholic teaching, he would have to do the same with any who was divorce and remarried, any who did not go to Mass every Sunday, any who used contraception of any sort, any who did not fulfill their Easter Duty of going to confession each year, etc. etc. etc.

Some Bishops have common sense. Others just like to grandstand on issues because they are the issue of the day.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I agree with Apple.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Friday
Senior Carp
Then there's the Catholic Church in the OC that's banning people for knealing during certain parts of the Mass. :shrug:
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
May 28 2006, 09:50 PM
Quote:
 
DO NOT FOCUS on the gay issue. Focus on the "sin" issue. Don't make it personal.


Um, yeah. Tell that to the guy who lost his job. I'm pretty sure for him it's pretty freaking personal, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it or beat around the bush by "focusing on the sin". Y'know, pobody's nerfect.

Just like giving a traffic ticket.

Sure, it's personal to the guy getting the ticket, but the law is the law.

Yes, we all sin daily, but I'm sure you all (or some of you) wouldn't have a problem if a music director was to step down if he was known to pick up prostitutes nightly.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Okay, let's assume this person in question was asked to step down for picking up prostitutes. Now let's assume he's asked to step down because someone caught him in a lie, once.

Hmmmm, are they the same thing? After all, sin is sin. Let's not make this personal and case-by-case.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
May 28 2006, 09:34 PM
Yes, we all sin daily, but I'm sure you all (or some of you) wouldn't have a problem if a music director was to step down if he was known to pick up prostitutes nightly.

I don't have a problem with what people do on their own time as long as it is not hurting anyone else.

The whole mind-control game that religions play is most disturbing to me.

I do not "sin" every day 89th.

I really cannot even remember the last time I did sin to be honest with you.

One of the reasons I hated gong to confession. I rarely had anything to confess so I made stuff up!

:lol:
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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katie
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apple
May 28 2006, 06:44 PM

....
yucky old biddies singin their yucky old songs, sinning in their own little ways and wearing rose perfume.

Yup ... ain't this the truth.

I remember little of my bible readings, but isn't there a verse about those being without sin casting the first stone?

A sad situation for this church Apple. I'm sure this fellow had a lot to do with inspiring youth through music in the church community.

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
May 29 2006, 09:49 AM
One of the reasons I hated gong to confession. I rarely had anything to confess so I made stuff up!

:lol:

Like "crank call," is there such a thing as "crank confession"? :blink:
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mark
May 29 2006, 05:49 AM
The 89th Key
May 28 2006, 09:34 PM
Yes, we all sin daily, but I'm sure you all (or some of you) wouldn't have a problem if a music director was to step down if he was known to pick up prostitutes nightly.

I don't have a problem with what people do on their own time as long as it is not hurting anyone else.

The whole mind-control game that religions play is most disturbing to me.

I do not "sin" every day 89th.

I really cannot even remember the last time I did sin to be honest with you.

One of the reasons I hated gong to confession. I rarely had anything to confess so I made stuff up!

:lol:

Well so long as you also said you lied, sounds like fair game to me! :lol:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
May 29 2006, 09:34 AM
Okay, let's assume this person in question was asked to step down for picking up prostitutes. Now let's assume he's asked to step down because someone caught him in a lie, once.

Hmmmm, are they the same thing? After all, sin is sin. Let's not make this personal and case-by-case.

Aqua, I would agree with you if the man lied on a consistent basis. However, I guess I'm referring to those who hold "leadership" positions in the church, but continue to commit the same sin daily, without remorse. I would say the same thing if the person was known to go home and get totally wasted every single night, or would go home and curse at his wife, etc. Generally, the church should make an effort to set an example. Those in the body of the church can sin all they want, the church shouldn't do anything unless it physically endangers others. But those leading worship, music, the sermon, etc...if they are known to commit an abominable sin, whatever the sin might be, the church should try their best to set an example, regardless of the sin.
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The 89th Key
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BTW, Aqua, for the record, I personally wouldn't have been offended or at least wouldn't probably have acted on it or encouraged this guy's removal from leading music...but that's me. At the same time, if the church organization made this move, I wouldn't protest it, as ultimately I see it as the church following the rules.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
The 89th Key
May 29 2006, 09:55 AM
BTW, Aqua, for the record, I personally wouldn't have been offended or at least wouldn't probably have acted on it or encouraged this guy's removal from leading music...but that's me. At the same time, if the church organization made this move, I wouldn't protest it, as ultimately I see it as the church following the rules.

The question has to be asked -- which rules and why is this rule deemed more important than another rule?

The teachings of the Church state that sexual relations between two men are wrong.

The teachings of the Catholic Church also state is that all human beings, gay or straight, have an inherent dignity and are not to be discriminated against.

The teachings of the Church are also that we should use all of our talents to give glory to God.

The teachings of the Church are also that jealousy is a sin and is wrong.

The teachings of the Church also oppose revenge.

The teachings of the Church are also against actng out of spite.

The teachings of the Church also oppose gossip with the intent to hurt another.

The teachings of the Church also opposes self-righteousness.

I could go on. But it seems to me, the authorities here have decided the first one I listed is so important the others can be ignored or at least relegated to secondary importance.

I wonder how many of those who started this campaign or made this decision comply with all of the teachings of the Catholic Church in all of their lives.

If they do not, I wonder on what basis they hold themselves up as better than this music director or more worthy of offering praise to God through music than he is.

More importantly, I wonder if God is smiling down on those who campaigned against this man and those who made the decision to remove him and saying "well done, good and faithful servant."

Or perhaps, is He shaking His head in disappointment, wondering how some people can get His message so screwed up?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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