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What It Takes to Get Repubs and Dems To Agree
Topic Started: May 24 2006, 11:10 AM (1,082 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/24/rai...s.ap/index.html
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Quote:
 
Pelosi sent a letter Wednesday to Jefferson asking him to step down from the committee.

"In the interest of upholding the high ethical standard of the House Democratic Caucus, I am writing to request your immediate resignation from the Ways and Means Committee," the letter said. .


:spit:

Best laugh I had all day!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
May 24 2006, 11:10 AM

It is interesting that if we are talking about unwarranted surveilance and searches of citizens, the GOP majority is relatively silent in even questioning Bush and his buddies, much less condemning them.

The moment it comes too close to home -- even with a warrant -- suddenly they are concerned with Constitutional rights.

I could accept Hastert and the GOP leadership being upset about this if they were just as upset about any potential infringement on my rights as a citizen. The fact they do not condemn Bush's Administration for what it has done to the rights of citizens and only condemns them for what they do to Congressmen speaks volumes about their true feelings about the Consitutuion -- that it is simply a utilitarian document meant to protect them; but otherwise, if it is some sort of hindrance and can be ignored at will.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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Rick, although legal, you oppose surrveilance of calls by known terrorist numbers to the USA?
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Rick Zimmer
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The 89th Key
May 24 2006, 12:28 PM
Rick, although legal, you oppose surrveilance of calls by known terrorist numbers to the USA?

Is it legal?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
What Rick said.

You've assumed the answer in your question, 89th.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
Allow me to rephrase the question:

Is it illegal? Is it unconstitutional?

And, have the courts ruled on any of these?
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QuirtEvans
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I personally believe that it's unconstitutional and not authorized by law.

And I will continue to believe that until the courts rule otherwise (which they have not, as yet). But it's a Republican Supreme Court, so the necessary rulings will be forthcoming, eventually.

What amazes me is that left-leaning organizations would be foolish enough to challenge it in court, right now. All that will happen is the creation of bad precedent. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. They need to sit back and take their medicine until there is a seismic political shift that changes the sitting judiciary.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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The courts have not ruled on this specific case but an excellent case can be (and has been) made that it is both legal and Constitutional. I await anything beyond platitudes and broad references to the Fourth Amendment to indicate the contrary.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
May 24 2006, 02:04 PM
Republican Supreme Court

I have never seen that phrase before Quirt. Did we ever have Democratic or Whig Supreme Courts?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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Actually, this brings up an interesting question. Quirt, perhaps you can answer since you are legally knowledgeable.

If something isn't illegal or unconstitutional, is it by default, legal? I would assume so, but maybe you can enlighten me.

Secondary question...if it's not illegal, but is taken to court and found to be illegal (AKA, a new law), wouldn't the "grandfather clause" (or whatever its called) indemnify the offending party?
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Rick Zimmer
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George K
May 24 2006, 01:00 PM
Allow me to rephrase the question:

Is it illegal? Is it unconstitutional?

And, have the courts ruled on any of these?

Herein, of course, lies one of the basic disagreements in our respective political philosophies.

You, obviously supporting a strong central government, trust the government enough when it pushes the envelope on civil liberties to place the burden on those outside to prove the government wrong.

I, being far more libertarian in my views, believe it is up to the government to justify itself when it pushes that envelope.

I do not trust ANY government when it is gathering power unto itself at the expense of individual rights.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Radu
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The 89th Key
May 24 2006, 11:28 PM
Rick, although legal, you oppose surrveilance of calls by known terrorist numbers to the USA?

If they are "known terrorists" they are probably calling from the prison, aren't they ?
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The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Actually, the known terrorists are in prison. however, the people they called whose numbers were found on the terrorists' cell phones, laptops, etc. are not.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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George K
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Finally
Rick Zimmer
May 24 2006, 04:08 PM
You, obviously supporting a strong central government, trust the government enough when it pushes the envelope on civil liberties to place the burden on those outside to prove the government wrong.

I said none of those things. I asked a question about the legality of the point that was brought up. Nothing more, nothing less.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Radu
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JBryan
May 25 2006, 12:16 AM
Actually, the known terrorists are in prison. however, the people they called whose numbers were found on the terrorists' cell phones, laptops, etc. are not.

Bueno.... America big big country...not easy find criminales...
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"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
I said none of those things. I asked a question about the legality of the point that was brought up. Nothing more, nothing less.


Yes, in fact Rick's entire response is nothing more than erecting a strawman and knocking it down. I'll help him if he likes because I don't want government doing those things either. The difference is I (and others) don't believe they have.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rick Zimmer
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George K
May 24 2006, 01:19 PM
Rick Zimmer
May 24 2006, 04:08 PM
You, obviously supporting a strong central government,  trust the government enough when it pushes the envelope on civil liberties to place the burden on those outside to prove the government wrong.

I said none of those things. I asked a question about the legality of the point that was brought up. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your re-phraseology defines who you feel deserves the assumption of being correct and who you believe has the burden of proof.

Or did you have another reason for rephrasing the questions?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Radu
May 24 2006, 04:20 PM
JBryan
May 25 2006, 12:16 AM
Actually, the known terrorists are in prison. however, the people they called whose numbers were found on the terrorists' cell phones, laptops, etc. are not.

Bueno.... America big big country...not easy find criminales...

I think we are less interested in finding criminals (although we are interested in that) than in discovering what they are up to and who else they are conspiring with.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Radu
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JBryan
May 25 2006, 12:23 AM
I think we are less interested in finding criminals (although we are interested in that) than in discovering what they are up to and who else they are conspiring with.

You first find them , then you beat the crap out of them and find what they're up to...
Posted Image
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"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Why beat the crap out of them when we can listen in on the people they are talking to. Saves wear and tear on the rubber hoses.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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George K
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Finally
You said I rephrased questions:

Quote:
 
Your re-phraseology defines who you feel deserves the assumption of being correct and who you believe has the burden of proof.
Or did you have another reason for rephrasing the questions?


You said:
Quote:
 
Is it legal?


I responded
Quote:
 
Allow me to rephrase the question:
Is it illegal? Is it unconstitutional?
And, have the courts ruled on any of these?


Quirt responded with a personal opinion:
Quote:
 
I personally believe that it's unconstitutional and not authorized by law.

And I will continue to believe that until the courts rule otherwise (which they have not, as yet). But it's a Republican Supreme Court, so the necessary rulings will be forthcoming, eventually.


You said:
Quote:
 
You, obviously supporting a strong central government, trust the government enough when it pushes the envelope on civil liberties to place the burden on those outside to prove the government wrong.


To which I responded:
Quote:
 
said none of those things. I asked a question about the legality of the point that was brought up. Nothing more, nothing less.



Now, I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that until a court rules that an activity is in violation of the law, the activity is legal. That's why I "rephrased" the question. To my understanding, and Quirts, no court has done that. Therefore it is legal until a court rules it is not.

Quirt, is my understanding of the law wrong?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Radu
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Senior Carp
JBryan
May 25 2006, 12:26 AM
Why beat the crap out of them when we can listen in on the people they are talking to. Saves wear and tear on the rubber hoses.

They do not talk on phones... They leave notes in garbage bins in Central Park (at least this is what they taught me at Djuganashvili scool of international spies and saboteurs - code name Bobruisk )
Posted Image
------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
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The 89th Key
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Radu
May 24 2006, 05:13 PM
The 89th Key
May 24 2006, 11:28 PM
Rick, although legal, you oppose surrveilance of calls by known terrorist numbers to the USA?

If they are "known terrorists" they are probably calling from the prison, aren't they ?

Ah, but "terrorist" was an adjective describing the "numbers" that we "know". :nerd:
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Radu
May 24 2006, 04:30 PM
JBryan
May 25 2006, 12:26 AM
Why beat the crap out of them when we can listen in on the people they are talking to. Saves wear and tear on the rubber hoses.

They do not talk on phones... They leave notes in garbage bins in Central Park (at least this is what they taught me at Djuganashvili scool of international spies and saboteurs - code name Bobruisk )

Leaving notes is a bit difficult from overseas. We are, after all, talking about international phone traffic here.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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