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| Interesting plagiarism case,; or why you need a good editor. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2006, 01:00 PM (576 Views) | |
| sue | May 8 2006, 01:00 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My apologies if this has already been talked about here, but I just heard about it this weekend. I happen to have the book in my hands; brought it home because it looked like a good fun bit of fluff. (didn't get very far, it's pretty lame).![]() How Opal Mehta Got Caught I was at a library conference last week, and went to a talk with several university reference librarians discussing plagiarism issues on campus. It's become a very big deal, (lots of problems with tutors) and is being dealt with seriously. So it really shocked me to find out about this book (written by a 19 yr. old Harvard student). Maybe some good will come out of it all, and will serve as a major wake up call to students, and to publishing houses to not be in such an all fired hurry to get books out. Sure makes the publisher look stupid. And the author has lost the contract for a second book, and a movie deal, I believe. Duh. Time to go back to school.
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| JBryan | May 8 2006, 01:09 PM Post #2 |
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I am the grey one
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The internet has made it far easier to plagiarize. It has also made it far easier to catch. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Jolly | May 8 2006, 01:35 PM Post #3 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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But how much of good literature is stolen? There are only so many plots, and only so many writing styles... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| dolmansaxlil | May 8 2006, 02:53 PM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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True, Jolly, but it is how they are put together, the crafting of words, and putting a new twist on an old plot that makes good writing. I've raved, for example, about Eragon - it's simply wonderful. There are definitely influences - Tolkein being most evident, but also McCaffrey and a handful of other writers I recognize in his work but can't place exactly. But he's taken those influences and major themes and - without doing something silly like trying to set a Lord of the Rings ripoff in modern times - has made it fresh and interesting. As for this particular case, I'd like to hear other similarities. Some people - especially those who are good with words - remember odd turns of phrase without even realizing they've commited them to memory. Perhaps she read and enjoyed that author, and without realizing she was even doing it, they came out in her writing. Plagarism is a HUGE issue - even in the kids as young as the ones I teach. I think these claims against her are worth investigating, but it may end up being much ado about nothing. (Someone get Shakespeare's lawyer on the phone...) |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| sue | May 8 2006, 03:12 PM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I agree dol, which is why I (half jokingly) suggested that maybe she just needed a good editor. She may well have had these phrases stuck in her head, and didn't remember where they came from. She should have gone over her work, and someone else should have as well. I think this is more sloppy, than deliberate plagiarism. And that's a shame.
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| bachophile | May 8 2006, 04:24 PM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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and to cheat in a college course is simply beyond the pale and ....oooops, wrong forum, sorry.
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| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| ivorythumper | May 8 2006, 05:42 PM Post #7 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Plagiarize, Let no one else's work evade your eyes, Remember why the good Lord made your eyes, So don't shade your eyes, But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure always to call it please, "research". |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| sue | May 8 2006, 10:15 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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guess I didn't get the memo.You don't think this is wrong? |
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| bachophile | May 9 2006, 04:22 AM Post #9 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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no no, that was a reference to a certain thread in WTF which has kept them occupied lately. also connected to the thread larry posted which has generated some responses which seems to have gotten by the expletive censor. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Klotz | May 9 2006, 04:25 AM Post #10 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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You should get some sleep... BTW did you already visited the www.hopefortheblonde.org site...? I almost decided to convert.... |
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| Jolly | May 9 2006, 06:55 AM Post #11 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Amen. How much "research" is just the same stuff ground up a different way? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Nina | May 9 2006, 07:13 AM Post #12 |
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Senior Carp
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Well honestly, how many original facts do we expect a 9th grader to uncover about the Civl War? OT I know, but I am annoyed at how few of my kids' essays and research papers actually ask for interpretation or opinion. They're just "spit out the basic facts on topic X using good penmanship." It's a big waste of time. My older kid got knocked down a grade because she did put in some opinion (at my suggestion, no less). The teacher told her that research papers were just for "facts." :angry:
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| big al | May 9 2006, 07:22 AM Post #13 |
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Bull-Carp
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I had a dust-up with an Instructor over the subject of plagiarism in college freshman English 43 years ago. The thought of it still rankles me. I perhaps had a simpler understanding of plagiarism (although no one at that time tried to explain the various ramifications) but still feel that I did nothing wrong. I rewrote the paper in question twice and finally the Instructor dropped the subject, although I was left with the impression that neither he nor certainly I were satisfied with the resolution. It makes me wonder how far an author is reasonably expected to go in parsing a piece of work to detect any unintended similarity to any preceding work? How many monkeys on how many typewriters can produce three words in the same sequence Shakespeare wrote them? Big Al |
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Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
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| ivorythumper | May 9 2006, 07:37 AM Post #14 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The bottom line in research papers is to cite or quote anything that's not your own thoughts. How it works in fiction -- let alone music, is beyond me. There are only so many plot lines (which I don't think is an issue), but only so many popularly acceptable chord progressions and rhythms. :lol: Let's be happy if they get it in the correct century. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 9 2006, 07:42 AM Post #15 |
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Fulla-Carp
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It certainly hjas. If I suspect plagiarism in one of my students papers, all I have to do is cut and paste one of the offending paragraphs into a google search and I am likely to find the source. I am surprised this young lady's subterfuge got as far as it did. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| ivorythumper | May 9 2006, 08:36 AM Post #16 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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How often do you find that happening? And what do you do about it? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 9 2006, 09:03 AM Post #17 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I don't find it happening very often, but then few of my assignments are such that they can plagiarize. I generally focus my assignments on making them analyze themselves what they have read; I want them to think. It generally is pretty easy to tell a young adult's thoughts about something as opposed to something they have found from somewhere else. When I do find it, if it is extensive, I flunk them. If it is one section of a larger paper, I require them to totally re-write it and then I mark then down big time. I have had more than one student break down in tears in my office over this because I do not take kindly to it. As a parent I learned that kids are far more upset if they have disappointed you than if you just get angry. It works with college students as well. And that is generally my honest reaction -- I am disappointed in them and their lack of integrity (which is how I see it and how I put it to them) far more than I am angry with them. I also try to use it as a learning experience. More often than not, the reason for it is time constraints -- too many college students take too many classes, have a job and also have family responsibilities. I explain to them it is far better to come see me, work things out, than to violate ethical standards. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Aqua Letifer | May 9 2006, 09:10 AM Post #18 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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I have a serious problem with "plagiarism without intent." It's one thing to pawn off someone else's ideas or research as your own, and it's another thing entirely to forget a stinking citation. My senior thesis had about 100 references in it, and due to the wonderful “impartiality” of our revered Honor System, if I forgot to footnote one of them, I'd be just as in trouble academically as if I tried to pretend I was the one who formulated those ideas. That's crap, IMO. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 9 2006, 09:14 AM Post #19 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Rick:
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | May 9 2006, 09:24 AM Post #20 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Funny plagiarism story: My uncle, being a priest at a Catholic parish, used to be principal of the school they had there. Pretty administrative job, really, but one time he had to deal with this child who plagiarized a report on, well, some Saint or something. Anyway, the kid, being only in elementary school, was SO sloppy, quite literally the URL of the website that contained the original information was in the header of every page!! So my Uncle, having a great sense of humor, called the kid (we’ll call him Johnny) into his office. He said, “Well, Johnny, I’m afraid there’s a problem with your report.” “Really?” “Yes, a BIG problem. You see, I was looking on the internet, and I came across this website…” <shows Johnny the website from his desk.> “…and what I have found here is the exact same information here that’s on your homework assignment! I think you know what this means…” “Yeah…” “Johnny, I believe that someone, somehow, got a hold of your homework and posted it on the internet as their own!! They STOLE your assignment!” Johnny is silent. “So, Johnny, since they stole from your work, what would you like to do about this?” …This goes on for about 15 minutes until the kid breaks down crying and tells the truth. This is the part of the story where my uncle usually bursts into laughter. Good stuff, I say! And a good (but weird) way to teach a lesson! |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Optimistic | May 9 2006, 09:25 AM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Awesome :lol: |
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PHOTOS I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up. - Mark Twain We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time. -T. S. Eliot | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 9 2006, 09:26 AM Post #22 |
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Fulla-Carp
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If this is how your professors handle it, they are far too focused on the letter of the law than on the spirit of the law. I am sure that your university catalogue and any rules set down for papers say this. Plagiarism is a real problem and the universities are trying to put the fear of God in the students to keep it from happening. But if I had a lengthy paper presented to me with lots of properly done citations and found one that was not cited, I would not assume plagiarism, I would assume a simple mistake. I suspect most professors would do the same. It is only common sense. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| ivorythumper | May 9 2006, 09:30 AM Post #23 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Aqua: :lol: :lol: :lol: |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| LWpianistin | May 9 2006, 09:33 AM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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i agree! oh....haha...that reminds me...i forgot to turn in my bibliography for a paper (although i did cite it in the paper...). i should email that to the professor ASAP! oopppps.
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| And how are you today? | |
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| Aqua Letifer | May 9 2006, 09:40 AM Post #25 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Well Rick, it's been awhile, but from what I remember, when a possible plagiarism case came up, it was the professor's responsibility to turn the matter over to our Honor Council; they then had no more say in the matter. Investigators, Representatives, other spiffy-sounding titles, we went the whole nine yards with this. Yeah, we had one of those, and IMHO they're the most unscrupulous bunch I knew of in school. I’m not saying they did things that were unjust, I’m saying that “what’s right” had nothing to do with their ruling. It was a book and a set of rules they followed, regardless of circumstances. Didn’t hold them in much high regard back then, and still don’t. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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discussing plagiarism issues on campus. It's become a very big deal, (lots of problems with tutors) and is being dealt with seriously. So it really shocked me to find out about this book (written by a 19 yr. old Harvard student). Maybe some good will come out of it all, and will serve as a major wake up call to students, and to publishing houses to not be in such an all fired hurry to get books out. Sure makes the publisher look stupid. And the author has lost the contract for a second book, and a movie deal, I believe. Duh. Time to go back to school.






guess I didn't get the memo.
:angry:
oopppps.

10:46 AM Jul 11