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| An Option for Iraq-- War Reparations? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2006, 09:43 AM (536 Views) | |
| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 09:43 AM Post #1 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Rather than continuing the killing of and by Americans in Iraq, why can't we just set up an international tribunal which will review the damage we have done to Iraq, settle on an amount of war reparations, have us pay it and then let us bring our troops home? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | May 8 2006, 10:06 AM Post #2 |
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I am the grey one
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Will the insurgency similarly submit to such a tribunal? Will they go home as well? Even if they did I would expect them to fare much better under such a tribunal because they would most likely be composed of members who, like Mr. Zimmer here, think America is the locus of all evil and is prima facie responsible for paying reparations to all comers, whoever they may be. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| The 89th Key | May 8 2006, 10:08 AM Post #3 |
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Rick, I think you have now lost your mind. |
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| ivorythumper | May 8 2006, 10:12 AM Post #4 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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How about if you just send me money for the rhetorical injustices you've committed. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Improviso | May 8 2006, 10:42 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Seriously??? Get real. I was thinking more along the lines of sending them a *liberation* bill and if they refuse to pay it, reinstall the previous regime and see how they like it. And they say Americans have short memories... |
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Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism. We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | May 8 2006, 11:10 AM Post #6 |
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Bull-Carp
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Good idea- charge the Iraqi g'ovt an 80% royalty on all the oil produced in the country for the next 25 years. |
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| Mikhailoh | May 8 2006, 12:08 PM Post #7 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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When I first read the opening post of this thread I was sure it was meant to be humorous, even if I did not get the joke. Evidently not. Hmm.. reparation, dissing Las Vegas. Rick, are you in a bad mood today? |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | May 8 2006, 01:44 PM Post #8 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Liberalism is a mental disorder. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 06:28 PM Post #9 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Not meant to be a joke at all. If we have to be there because we broke it, wouldn't it be better if we paid for it but allowed the Iraqis to decide what the priorities are for rebuilding their country, handle the rebuilding with their own people and choose the pace of the rebuilding? Why not just hand over to them $150 Billion and get out? No more Americans dying or being maimed, and we set the Iraqi's up to create the society and country they want. Why do we assume that we, the Americans, know how best to rebuild their country and what the priorities should be? Why can't we trust the Iraqis to know better than us? Especially when they want us gone anyway and our very presence in keeping the violence going. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | May 8 2006, 06:35 PM Post #10 |
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I am the grey one
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Not all of us are agreed that we "broke it" and when you speak of "reparations" and "international tribunals" you are, in effect, blaming the US for visiting some awful tragedy on Iraq. That is something that, again, we don't all agree on. Therefore, if the premise on which your post is based is highly debatable and, in fact, accepted by only a small minority then you should not be surprised when some ask you if you are joking. Personally, I think you are off your rocker but I will address your idea as seriously as I can bring myself to simply for the sake of maintaining civil dialog. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 06:41 PM Post #11 |
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Fulla-Carp
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There are lots of people though who do support staying there simply from a sense of guilt for what we have done. In fact, that seems to be the major reason most argue we cannot leave yet -- we have so destroiyed their civil society and their physical plant, that we have to stay there until we make it better. But for the sake of argument,. lets set aside the term "reparations"... Why not just hand the country back to them andf say we will pay $X towards their reconstruction -- but not another drop of American blood? The troops are out of there and the Iraqis are now free of Hussein and can work things out in whatever way they want through whatever method they choose. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | May 8 2006, 06:55 PM Post #12 |
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I am the grey one
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i doubt that most people who support a continued presence in Iraq do so out of guilt. The most common motivation seems to be that we need to finish what we started. As for the "civil society" we destroyed you rreally can't be serious. Or do you fall behind Michael Moore with his portrayal of Iraqis enjoying a carefree existence before we came along.
The Iraqis need more than just money. In fact, Iraq has quite a bit of wealth in natural resources already. They need a lot of things that they can't get by our just sitting back and throwing money at them. For instance, no amount of money is going to make a fully functioning security apparatus spring into being instantaneously. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Larry | May 8 2006, 07:14 PM Post #13 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Liberalism is a mental disorder. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 09:40 PM Post #14 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Which is what? What did we start? How will we know when we are finished? And you don't think the average American wants out now -- but is reluctant to do so for the very reason that Quirt mentions -- they feel guilt because we broke it and now we have an obligation to fix it?
So, are you saying we are stuck there until they have a fully functioning security apparatus? Do you have any idea how many years it is going to take the rid that nation of tribalism and war lords and sectarian divisions and get a fully functioning security apparatus that is not dominated by one group who uses it to harrass and tyrannize another group? Hell, the Interior Ministry which is the entity that was set up to handle internal security is currently riddled with Shiites who are avenging themeselves. It sponsors death squads against the Sunnis. Are you suggesting we are stuck there until this new bureaucracy is dismantled and another new one is established that is supposedly not sectarian? Good Lord! You are talking about us being there to undo centuries of mistrust and hatred! Just how long do you think it will take us to accomplish this? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| garrett | May 8 2006, 10:26 PM Post #15 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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So who would you give the money to? |
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| Larry | May 8 2006, 10:45 PM Post #16 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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It would take us a lot less time if people who think like you do would shut up. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| JBryan | May 9 2006, 04:39 AM Post #17 |
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I am the grey one
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Rick, Yes, there have been some abuses from within the newly forming security aparatus but that is to be expected. on the whole, the process of turning over Iraq's security to Iraqis has been marked by steady progress and has already achieved a level of success you were saying was impossible a year ago. Whatever evolves it will never be entirely free of sectarian divisions but we have similar problems within a lot of our own police forces. You seem to want to settle for nothing short of paradise while I would be satisfied if the iraqis could maintain order and the security of their own borders with little or no involvement by us. They are making progress toward that goal so it strikes me as extremely short-sighted to get out now just because there remain some sectarian differences. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| John D'Oh | May 9 2006, 04:51 AM Post #18 |
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MAMIL
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There are responsiblities as well as benefits to being a superpower. You can't just say 'this is too difficult, we're going home now'. Is anyone really surprised by this? You can either choose isolationism or not. If you choose isolationism then in the fullness of time you'll be reduced in stature and other countries or groups of countries such as China and the EU will fill the place the US currently holds - this may happen anyway, of course. If you believe that isolationism will make America a safer place, consider 12/7/41. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 9 2006, 07:48 AM Post #19 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I don't think accepting the fact that we cannot resolve centuries old hatreds is shirking our duty as a super power. It is simply facing facts. I do think that invading a country and thinking we can rebuild it the way we want it for our own geopolitical desires is. With any luck, Iraq will teach us the limits of our power the same way Vietnam did. If we're smart, this time we won't forget it. (As for the Eu anmd China, there is a lot of thinking that they are so alarmed with the bullheaded selfish international actions of the United States, that they have every intent of building themselves up simply as a counter weight to the US. It's unfortunate for us and for the world that under Bush we have chosen to act like a bully in the school yard, rather than as the leader of the international community.) |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| AlbertaCrude | May 9 2006, 07:52 AM Post #20 |
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Bull-Carp
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Don't know about the EU, but the Chinese are anything but alarmed. In fact I suspect they are grateful. |
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| Mikhailoh | May 9 2006, 07:53 AM Post #21 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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We acted as you would have us throughout the Clinton administration. The result was continued attacks on the US at home and abroad, climaxing in 9/11. Let's see.. how many attacks on the US have there been outside of Iraq and Afghanistan since then? I think that would be a nice round number. Zero. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | May 9 2006, 07:54 AM Post #22 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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For those of you who don't understand why I have repeatedly said that Rick and people like him are enemies of the US, read the above quote and think it completely through. This man should be put on the first plane out of the country. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Kincaid | May 9 2006, 07:58 AM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Is what? |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 9 2006, 08:26 AM Post #24 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Don't buy into the rhetoric that "we started it". That is a ruse to shift the ground to a more defensible position. What is now happening in Iraq is a continuation of the events started by Saddam when he invaded Kuwait, was beaten back, signed a cease fire agreement, the terms of which he then continually violated (including continuing the develop WMDs, violating the no fly zone, hostile actions against other sovereign nations, and torturing and terrorizing the Iraqi people). Our present involvement in Iraq is the result of the need to enforce the terms of the cease fire agreement. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | May 9 2006, 08:57 AM Post #25 |
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Bull-Carp
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I do not dispute this. However, the US, French and British at the time knew perfectly well that Hussein was a warlord. As well Hussein used all diplomatic channels to inform the first Bush Administration, Whitehall and Paris that he would use military force to collect on Kuwaiti financial promises made to Iraq during the Iran Iraq War. No country took Hussein's claims against the oil rich Emirate seriously. In fact Hussein was given the impression from meetings with UNSC envoys that Kuwait was there for his taking. Certainly Kuwait was made a British protectorate in 1899 to gain a military foothold along the south eastern frontier of the dying Ottoman Empire it also guaranteed for the specific future benefit of William Knox D'arcy's Anglo-Persian Oil Company. Kuwait was therefore later set aside from the Iraqi Mandate to enable the British to control the production and refining of all oil in the Persian Gulf. Arguably, Hussein was not entirely incorrect in maintaining that Kuwait was indeed a part of greater Iraq as per the terms of the 1919 Paris Treaty and Iraq's independence of 1932. |
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10:47 AM Jul 11