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Now Can We Leave?
Topic Started: May 6 2006, 10:59 AM (528 Views)
JBryan
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I am the grey one
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Quote:
 
(JBryan @ May 8 2006, 06:40 PM)
We have broken no one's legs. We are in the process of transforming a people accustomed to living under a brutal dictatorship into a civil society. If they want us gone or they choose to return to life under a brutal dictatorship then we should be willing to oblige. So far, there has been no such desire expressed by Iraqis as a whole. Therefore, we stay because we started this transformation.

On what basis do we have the audacity to assume we know the type of society they should be tranformed into?

It is one thing to say we have done them a favor in removing an evil dictator -- it is quite another to transform them into a society that we have defined, not them.


Apparently, the term "civil society" is one with which you have only a nodding acquaintance. In fact, in another thread you said that is what they had under Saddam.

We should be satisfied if they are self-determining. We are betting that people truly free to self-determine do not choose tyranny. It is by no means certain but I would put money on it.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Rick, you can cram more incorrect information into one post than any ten men. Do you *ever* pay attention to the news?

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But, as it now stands, we are not just helping. We are running the place.


No, we're not "running the place". We *were* running the place, but while you were wandering around in a fog we were training Iraqis to step up into our positions, which they've done in large numbers, helping them form a new government, which they've done.

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We forced the elections on them.


Are you really that ignorant, or do you tell these lies on purpose to get reactions? Let me quote again the old Iraqi woman who had stood in line for who knows how long, risking being killed by the insurgents who tried to keep the elections from happening, in a sea of Iraqis who also risked their lives to vote, millions of Iraqi people so happy and thankful for the opportunity to vote that they waved their purple thumbs proudly for all to see....

the old woman's quote - "Thank you, thank you America! You people who don't support Bush can GO TO HELL!"

We never "forced" an election on them, Rick. They wanted that election more than anything they'd ever wanted in their lives.

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Most the those in positions of power are former exiles who we put in power.


A bare assed lie. List them.

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We decided the type of government they should have


No, we didn't.

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assuming they ever get around to forming a government.


Maybe you missed this while staring at the furthest end of your colon, but they've already formed one.

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We have chosen what infrastructure is to be built and we have let the contracts and decided who is to do the rebuilding?


With the help and cooperation of the Iraqis themselves. The very fact that you wrote that sentence shows just how ignorant you are of the real world.

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We also have decided what the foreign policy will be, who they can have as allies (it better not be Iran!).

You have twisted this up to the point that it is completely absurd to even attempt to unravel it.

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We are also involving ourselves in deciding how the three major factions will cooridnate their existence -- deciding who are the winners and who are the losers and how much power one can have compared to another.


No, that is a perverse rewriting of the reality of things. We are working *with* the three groups to help them come up with a way to work together. They *want* to work together. They just don't know how, and with their blessings, we're attempting to help them accomplish it.

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On what basis do we have the audacity to assume we know the type of society they should be tranformed into?


On what basis do you have the audacity to assume we're forcing them to build a certain type of society?

You see nothing but negative, Rick. Every time I think you've taken the prize in lunatic views, you outdo yourself.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
JBryan
May 8 2006, 07:26 PM
We should be satisfied if they are self-determining. We are betting that people truly free to self-determine do not choose tyranny. It is by no means certain but I would put money on it.

Then why was the US Occupation Government establiosh laws which the agreement between the US and the Iraqi Transitional governments says cannot be changed?

Why was the US involved in decixdiing who would be in the transitional government?

Why was the US involved in writing the Coinsitution, and demanding a timetable for its prepaeration and the election?

If you truly believe we have allowed them at any step in the process to be self-governing and self-determining, then you have not been following what has gone on over there.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
You seem to be wandering back and forth between the position that we are establishing a puppet government and they are forming a government that is the embodiment of Sharia and a clone of Iran's Mullocracy. You cannot have it both ways.

Of course the transitional government was not determined by them. That is why it was called a transitional government. A transition to the one they now have where all members have been elected by Iraqis. If you really believe that what they have formed today was not the result of self-determination then we need to discuss just what exactly you think that term means. The parliament was elected by the people and they are now in the process of establishing a goverment. A process that would have been a whole hell of a lot farther along by now if we were really calling the shots.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rick Zimmer
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JBryan
May 9 2006, 04:45 AM
You seem to be wandering back and forth between the position that we are establishing a puppet government and they are forming a government that is the embodiment of Sharia and a clone of Iran's Mullocracy. You cannot have it both ways.

Of course the transitional government was not determined by them. That is why it was called a transitional government. A transition to the one they now have where all members have been elected by Iraqis. If you really believe that what they have formed today was not the result of self-determination then we need to discuss just what exactly you think that term means. The parliament was elected by the people and they are now in the process of establishing a goverment. A process that would have been a whole hell of a lot farther along by now if we were really calling the shots.

I believe that the government that is being formed will not stand.

It is a straw government that did not arise out of the people, but was imposed upon them through elections that gave them choices they did not choose to have and denied them alternatives they may have considered.

The government will be put in place and then will be shown to have no real power, except the power of the United States, just as the elections were made possible and the transitional government has been kept in power only because of the the United States. As such, it will lose any and all credibility among the people and will be rejected, even as the US props it up for as long as we stay by taking it upon ourselves to wage war against Iraqis themselves who oppose the government, simply because we ourselves set up that government -- which is what we are doing now, waging war against Iraqis.

We have made this mistake before -- in Vietnam. They too had elections and the government was kept in power only through the military force of the United States until we realized we were on a fool's mission. It did not work then it won't work now.

What is happening in Iraq with regards to their new government is a farce.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Evidence please?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
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I believe that the government that is being formed will not stand.


That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, it is a long way from being fact. Time will tell and if the track record on your previous prognistications is any indication then Iraq should do very well indeed.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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I believe that the government that is being formed will not stand.


You also believe the sky is falling. You think with a loser's brain. All you see is doom and gloom, and you're always on the opposite side of truth, common sense, and logic. As has been said many times before, you live in a dream world of your own creation, a world where the US is the bad guy and the enemies of the US are the poor, down trodden good guys. You should be examined for competency before being allowed to enter another classroom. You'd fail.

Yes, I'm sick of you.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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