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| Now Can We Leave? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 6 2006, 10:59 AM (529 Views) | |
| Rick Zimmer | May 6 2006, 10:59 AM Post #1 |
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Fulla-Carp
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The Sunni's don't want us there. The Shiites have decided they want us gone. Do you think that with the vast majority of Iraqis wanted us out, that we can finally bring the troops home and start focusing on the real war on terror, not Bush's Iraq fetish? Iraq's Shiites Now Chafe at American Presence Perceived U.S. missteps, a torrent of angry propaganda and the sect's new political sway have fused to turn welcomers into foes. By Borzou Daragahi, Times Staff Writer May 6, 2006 KARBALA, Iraq — A visitor need not go far or search hard to hear and see the anti-American venom that bubbles through this ancient shrine city, which once welcomed U.S. forces as liberators. "The American ambassador is the gate through which terrorism enters Iraq," says a banner hanging from the fence surrounding the tombs of Imam Hussein and Imam Abbas, among the most revered martyrs of the Shiite Muslim faith. A song screeches from a boombox at a nearby CD shop: "If the occupiers come at us, we will plant a bomb underneath them." For three years, most of Iraq's Shiites welcomed — or at least tolerated — the U.S. presence here. In the weeks immediately after the American-led invasion, the mothers and sisters of Saddam Hussein's Shiite victims clutched clumps of dried earth as they wept over mass graves and thanked God for ending their oppression. The Shiite acceptance of an American presence allowed troops to concentrate on putting down the insurgency in western Iraq, which is led by Sunni Muslim Arabs. With the exception of an uprising in mid-2004 by followers of radical cleric Muqtada Sadr, the south has been relatively quiet and peaceful under the sway of Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. But now the mood has shifted. Perceived American missteps, a torrent of anti-U.S. propaganda and a recently emboldened Shiite sense of political prowess have coalesced to make the south a fertile breeding ground for antagonism toward America's presence. The change has weakened the Bush administration's position and dimmed its hopes that Iraq's Shiites would counter the vehement anti-Americanism of their coreligionists across the border in Iran. "There is an anger," said Jaffar Mohammed Asadi, spokesman for Ayatollah Mohammed Taqi Modaressi, a moderate and well-regarded cleric known more for his attempts to boost business in Karbala than for fiery anti-American speeches. "You can hear it in the slogans at Friday prayers: 'Death to America,' " he said. "They're burning American flags. They're saying, 'The Americans won't leave except by the funerals of their sons.' " Several factors have combined to produce that Shiite fury. Many Shiites think the U.S. betrayed them in 1991 when then-President George H.W. Bush called on Iraqis to rise up against Hussein but then took no action as the dictator mowed down an uprising in the south. Moreover, nationalism is a strong current among Iraqi Shiites, and analysts say their anti-Western attitudes were sure to surface some day. "We had a lot of grace period," said Graham E. Fuller, a former Mideast-based CIA operative now writing books about the region. "But essentially, no group in Iraq that aspires to rule with legitimacy can act in a way perceived as being pro-American." Above all, however, the new Shiite attitude reflects the changed political reality of Iraq's south: Once the Shiites were weak; now they have power. Many say they no longer need the Americans. In and around Karbala and Najaf — the southern Iraqi cities that house the holiest shrines of Shiite Islam — dozens of checkpoints are staffed by Shiite police officers and soldiers. The security has made the south much safer than Baghdad or heavily Sunni provinces. As U.S. forces struggle to recruit police officers and soldiers in Sunni areas, police in the southern Iraqi province of Muthanna on Wednesday proudly announced that they had busted a ring of drug dealers after a two-hour shootout. "We agreed with Americans only at the point of removing Saddam Hussein," said Sheik Abu Mohammed Baghdadi, a cleric in Najaf who is close to Sistani. "The relationship ended at that point." U.S. officials point to yet another factor in the souring of relations: what they describe as an intense propaganda campaign, some of which emanates from Iran, that seeks to paint American policy in the ugliest terms. In interview after interview in Najaf and Karbala, Shiites adhered to a version of current events that magnified corruption and torture cases into pervasive abuses by the Americans and depicted U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, a Sunni born in Afghanistan, as anti-Shiite. "We need to do a better job of explaining what we're doing, and some people are intentionally trying to mislead," Khalilzad said in a recent interview. Beyond the propaganda war, however, there is a clash between the culture of the American military and the pious, rural values of Iraqi Shiites. Akeel Mahmoud Qazali, the governor of Karbala province, said he had lambasted his American counterparts after U.S. soldiers brought explosives-sniffing dogs into the provincial headquarters before the arrival of a visiting American delegation in February. Dogs are considered unclean by observant Muslims. In Najaf last month, Iraqi officials looked on with shock as bored American soldiers flung pieces of bread at one another. "They're playing with food," one police officer said with disgust. "That's a sin." And Shiites bridle at what they see as American and British interference in matters of state — especially security. "Beside every Cabinet minister there is an American advisor," said Mohammed Bashar Najafi, son of, and spokesman for, one of Iraq's four grand ayatollahs. "Each province has an American advisor. Each city council has an American advisor. The country is occupied, and this occupation is a weight on the chest of Iraq." Provincial officials in Basra and Amarah, as well as here in Karbala, have had recent run-ins with American and British military counterparts. Basra's government for a time completely suspended contacts and cooperation with British troops. In Karbala, "the American soldiers are wandering the streets asking people provocative questions about whether they belong to this militia or that," said Qazali, the governor. "They've been doing airborne raids without the knowledge of security forces in ways that are terrifying local residents." Shiites bristle at the Americans' refusal to let them take on insurgents the way they'd like to. They say their hands are bound by U.S. forces and Khalilzad, who has made a priority of reforming Iraq's internal-security forces, which are dominated by sectarian militias. Sunnis, who feel they have been targeted by the security police, have applauded those American initiatives; Shiites are outraged. The latter see the move against the militias as a ploy to disarm Shiites in the face of insurgent attacks. One banner hanging from a government building in Karbala said the blood of Iraqi Shiites "stained the hands of Khalilzad" along with those of his Sunni Arab "deputies." "Americans are interfering and not allowing us to control security," said Fallah Aliyawi, a publisher in Najaf. "Iraqis know better how to enforce security." Despite the tensions, few believe southern Iraq is on the verge of an explosion. Deadly attacks against U.S., British and allied troops in the region appear to have increased in recent weeks, but the U.S. military says assaults there on allied forces still average less than one a day except in Basra, which has about two a day. Any call to violent jihad, or holy war, Shiites say, would come only from the senior level of the clergy, the marjaiyah, as it did in the 1920s, when Shiites here rose up against Iraq's British occupiers. For now, the clergy is watching and waiting, perhaps convinced that it will get what it wants without having to sacrifice more Iraqi blood. "The marjaiyah is calculating things and counting things according to the benefit of the Iraqi street," said Najafi, a mid-ranking cleric. "It wants independence with a minimum of losses and a maximum of profit. The marjaiyah has not ruled out the option of calling for jihad, and the Americans and their allies best not forget that." |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| The 89th Key | May 6 2006, 11:02 AM Post #2 |
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Rick, can you honestly not see that us just leaving right now is the WORST POSSIBLE thing we could do? Do you not see the horrible consequences of this? I'm being serious. |
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| JBryan | May 6 2006, 11:04 AM Post #3 |
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I am the grey one
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I would be in favor of a Iraqi national referendum on the matter. You might be surprised by how it turns out, however. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 6 2006, 11:07 AM Post #4 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I thought it was their country? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| iainhp | May 6 2006, 11:24 AM Post #5 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Way I hear it, it might be 3 countries. |
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| Larry | May 6 2006, 12:31 PM Post #6 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Let's give Rick a little credit here. Starting months before we even began the invasion, Rick has assured us the Iraqis didn't want us there. All through the war, Rick has insisted the vast majority of Iraqis didn't want us there. Nothing presented to him that proved they wanted us there was ever given the slightest shred of possibility - he dismissed each and every piece of evidence presented to him. Now, he has posted an article that proves he was wrong. And not simply because there had to be a change from them wanting us there to them wanting us gone in order to make the story worth telling, the article flatly states that for 3 years they have wanted us there. Of course, the writer of the opinion piece had to stick with the Shiites, since the other two groups *still* want us there - to protect them from the Shiites, the least tolerant or cooperative group in the bunch. Had he talked to the other groups it would have messed up his little story. It took a lot of courage to admit you've been wrong all these years, Rick. I'm proud of you. The whole time you were arguing that the Iraqis overwhelmingly objected to our being there, your side now admits they did want us there. You were wrong, and you've faced up to your error. Now if you could just learn how to tell the difference between ideological bull**** and real news reporting, you'd be all set. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| QuirtEvans | May 6 2006, 01:15 PM Post #7 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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No. You broke it, you bought it. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Kincaid | May 6 2006, 04:00 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hey, if the Iraqi gov't wants us to leave, we can always move next door. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| The 89th Key | May 6 2006, 07:28 PM Post #9 |
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Rick, I think you have something to learn from Quirt. |
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| LWpianistin | May 6 2006, 07:33 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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the original post is too long for me to bother to read....and too boring and predictable (i'm assuming). |
| And how are you today? | |
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| jon-nyc | May 7 2006, 12:23 AM Post #11 |
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Cheers
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so why bother posting? |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | May 7 2006, 08:34 AM Post #12 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| George K | May 7 2006, 08:36 AM Post #13 |
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Finally
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| jon-nyc | May 7 2006, 09:25 AM Post #14 |
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Cheers
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lol george. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 08:34 AM Post #15 |
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Fulla-Carp
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At what point to we admit we broke it so badly, we can't fix it? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 08:37 AM Post #16 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Move from one catastrophic failure by planning another? Now THAT'S an interesting proposition. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| QuirtEvans | May 8 2006, 08:59 AM Post #17 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Well, let's keep the analogy going, and assume that your facts are correct (even though I don't think they are, it will just take a very long time and an incredible amount of money and perspicacity). You run over someone with your car. Their leg is shattered into a million pieces. It's irreparable. Do you look at the situation and say, "My bad, but it's broken so badly, I can't do anything about it, so I'm outta here"? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| iainhp | May 8 2006, 09:14 AM Post #18 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Germany and Japan took years to get back on their feet. WW2 ended in 1945. By the late 60's Japan was turning out trinkets. By the 80's it became a manufacturing powerhouse. Germany followed a similar path. The catholics and protestants in N. Ireland went at it for much longer, but peace appears to be prospering. Iraq is perhaps a strange conflict in that one side is invoking religious overtones, while the other is not. But by history's standards we have been involved for an incredibly short period of time. I also seem to remember Bush saying that we were in this for the long haul. Other's have stated that the war against terrorism may never be over - there is no quick fix., and more importantly, there is no "out". All that aside - what exactly did we "broke" in the first place? |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 09:41 AM Post #19 |
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Fulla-Carp
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But there is an end, even kowing you cannot make the person's leg whole again, it will always be damged. So, what is the end, Quirt? At what point do you say you have done what yuou can? Especially when the person you have damaged wants you to leave them alone because they see you as doing nothing more than further damage? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| The 89th Key | May 8 2006, 10:08 AM Post #20 |
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Rick, are you honestly in the mindset that we can't do any more good over there? Every day we make more and more progress, economically and politically. Then again, you think we should just get up and leave right this instant...and that's pure insanity if you ask me. |
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| QuirtEvans | May 8 2006, 11:24 AM Post #21 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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If the person tells you to get lost, then I guess you get lost. But I don't hear that happening in Iraq yet, not with anything like a single, unified voice. Or even a majority voice. I think the vast majority of the Iraqi population isn't sure what they want, right now. They are unhappy with the way things are ... and in some (important) respects, they are worse off than they were under Saddam, but in other ways things are clearly better ... but I haven't concluded that the majority of Iraqis, or anything like that, clearly want us gone. And you know me well enough to know that I'm not predisposed to agree with the President's position. And, until the person tells you to get lost, you have a responsibility to keep trying to help ... because you are responsible for things being the way they are. You can't say, oh well, I've done what I can. You are responsible, and you have to keep trying to make amends. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| The 89th Key | May 8 2006, 01:08 PM Post #22 |
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You're a smart man, Quirt. |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 06:34 PM Post #23 |
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Fulla-Carp
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But, as it now stands, we are not just helping. We are running the place. We forced the elections on them. Most the those in positions of power are former exiles who we put in power. We decided the type of government they should have -- assuming they ever get around to forming a government. We have chosen what infrastructure is to be built and we have let the contracts and decided who is to do the rebuilding? We also have decided what the foreign policy will be, who they can have as allies (it better not be Iran!). We are also involving ourselves in deciding how the three major factions will cooridnate their existence -- deciding who are the winners and who are the losers and how much power one can have compared to another.. If we continue with your analogy of breaking someone's legs, one may have the responsibility to try to make the person whole, but one does not step in and decide which doctor the person goes to, what the treatment will be, much less run the person's life. Nor does one say "I'll decide when I get out of your life." |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | May 8 2006, 06:40 PM Post #24 |
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I am the grey one
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We have broken no one's legs. We are in the process of transforming a people accustomed to living under a brutal dictatorship into a civil society. If they want us gone or they choose to return to life under a brutal dictatorship then we should be willing to oblige. So far, there has been no such desire expressed by Iraqis as a whole. Therefore, we stay because we started this transformation. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | May 8 2006, 06:44 PM Post #25 |
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Fulla-Carp
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On what basis do we have the audacity to assume we know the type of society they should be tranformed into? It is one thing to say we have done them a favor in removing an evil dictator -- it is quite another to transform them into a society that we have defined, not them. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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10:47 AM Jul 11