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For those of you who support illegals; and think it's a good thing......
Topic Started: May 4 2006, 09:28 AM (912 Views)
Nina
Senior Carp
I'm in agreement with you, JB.

Where I part ways is the desire to criminalize illegals in this country, who are here working and not doing anything wrong. There's a bit of a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" that's been going on in our society for decades now. We all know about illegals, we all want "the problem" controlled, but not enough to actually DO anything about it.

I'd love to see our borders tightened and our containers inspected more fully. I'd like to see a process where honest, law-abiding immigrants can legally come over to the US to work and earn a living. I'd like to see a system where shady characters are caught at the border and prosecuted.

I don't agree with all the hysteria about deporting and criminalizing millions of illegals whose only crime is crossing the border to work. Yes, I know that crossing the border is illegal, but we've been so lackadaisical about our borders for so long I don't think we are blameless victims.

It's a serious problem. It needs a pragmatic solution, not politicking and hysteria.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
Yes, but that's a small possibility. Reports came out saying that Mexico is not the most popular way terrorists get into the country.


Saying the former is not the same as saying the latter. It may not be the most popular now but that does not make it a small possibility. besides, just how great does the possibility have to be to you that we don't just blow it off.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Aqua Letifer
Member Avatar
ZOOOOOM!
Well we shouldn't blow it off, but for me our boarder problems are about the flood of immigrants (admittedly at the moment), not terrorists. That's something we need to look at of course, but my concern would be that this is all we would focus on when improving our boarders.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Aqua Letifer
May 5 2006, 07:57 AM
Reports came out saying that Mexico is not the most popular way terrorists get into the country.


Indeed according to Hillary Clinton and Anne Coulter the holding pen and staging area for terrorsts to enter is the northern border.
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JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Nina,

I also have no interest in punishing people who are only here to make a better living. i would prefer they were here legally but they are not and a large part of why they are here is the nudge, nudge, wink, wink to which you referred. These people are not my concern so much as the, I think, frightening security situation that allows them to be here in the first place. That is why I am open to a compromise of the type that does not include deportation and allows these people to stay here and work under the condition that they are registered in a system that allows us to know who and where they are. I am not in favor of allowing citizenship for them, at least not in a way that makes it easier than those who came through the system legally. In exchange I would like to see some real border security. It is a win win. We finally know who and where these people are, we deport those who try to evade the new system and we secure the border against future illegal entry.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
AlbertaCrude
May 5 2006, 11:08 AM
Aqua Letifer
May 5 2006, 07:57 AM
Reports came out saying that Mexico is not the most popular way terrorists get into the country.


Indeed according to Hillary Clinton and Anne Coulter the holding pen and staging area for terrorsts to enter is the northern border.

We need to secure that one as well.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
So do we- too many US based private health care insurance terrorists from the US lobbying our conservative politicians to undermine our system.
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Nina
Senior Carp
JBryan
May 5 2006, 09:09 AM
Nina,

I also have no interest in punishing people who are only here to make a better living. i would prefer they were here legally but they are not and a large part of why they are here is the nudge, nudge, wink, wink to which you referred. These people are not my concern so much as the, I think, frightening security situation that allows them to be here in the first place. That is why I am open to a compromise of the type that does not include deportation and allows these people to stay here and work under the condition that they are registered in a system that allows us to know who and where they are. I am not in favor of allowing citizenship for them, at least not in a way that makes it easier than those who came through the system legally. In exchange I would like to see some real border security. It is a win win. We finally know who and where these people are, we deport those who try to evade the new system and we secure the border against future illegal entry.



JB--So why aren't we running the show? :clap:
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Nina
Senior Carp
Aqua Letifer
May 5 2006, 09:06 AM
That's something we need to look at of course, but my concern would be that this is all we would focus on when improving our boarders.

Nice Freudian slip, there! :P
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Some would prefer more porous boarders, if they came here illegally.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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big al
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Bull-Carp
It's a bit incongrous that the man Larry cites as an illegal immigrant came to the US on a legal visa and only became illegal when his visa expired and he failed to get it extended.

Perhaps Larry's real motive is to run out all the illegal immigrants since 1492.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
The initial post in this thread is EXACTLY that type of propoganda used against the Jews in Germany.


You're out of your mind. Only an unmitigated fool would draw such a ridiculous comparison.

First, the Timothy McVeigh picture: Meant to show that you don't have to be an illegal alien to be a terrorist. While that's true, it misses the point. Just because legal citizens are capable of being terrorists is no reason to open the doors and allow the country to be flooded with terrorists from other countries.

Liberals get all caught up in their touchy feely utopian view of the world and don't see passed it. Rick for instance has repeatedly shown that he sees all the illegal aliens crossing into our country as poor little family men and women who merely want to earn a little money. They mean no harm, they just want to be good citizens. Such a nice, sterile picture he paints as he sits safely on his perch in his classroom, sheltered from the real world. If you say anything to upset his little dream world of reality and he compares you to a Nazi.

Here's the real world, Rick. For every nice little family man or woman coming across our border simply wanting to earn a little money for his family, for every nice, cutesy cuddly person who fits your description, there is a violent criminal coming across as well. They are not coming here to pick tomatoes, and send money back home to Juanita. They are here to join the latino gangs that are growing at a breathtaking pace, to help run the massive drug cartel that extends all the way from South America up through Mexico, and thanks to politically correct fools and leftwing morons who lack the common sense to see reality, into America.

Your claim of bigotry and now comparing me to a Nazi propagandist stems from your own ignorance. *You* are the propagandist. Do a google search on gangs and drug cartels. *You* are on the side that doesn't have the good sense to block their entry into this country. *You* are on the side who sees it all as another Kumbaya moment. I am on the side who sees you supporting the destruction of America.

My point is not about hating Mexicans. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't have a problem with Mexicans coming into this country, as long as they do it legally and show themselves to be the nice little family man or woman you think they all are. The issue is your blindness. The issue is your lack of common sense that you show when you not only support but actively encourage allowing unfettered entry into this country of anyone who can sneak through the border.

The man in the first picture was one of those people, Rick. Your viewpoint allowed him to get here in the first place. Your viewpoint is allowing thousands upon thousands more to get in today.

Lastly, for comparing me to a Nazi propagandist, you can kiss my ass. I see you as the epitome of what's wrong with America. If we ever manage to work around the idiots who think the way you do and deport the criminals coming into the country, it is my opinion that they should load you pacifist leftwing nuts up and send you out with them.

Now - I don't want to round up all the illegal immigrants who mean no harm and only want a job either. But I don't want them to be granted citizenship simply because they are already here. I agree with JB's description of things in handling those people. But there is a hairbrained mindset among the left that we should not only make them citizens, we should not hinder more of them from coming in. The last *illegal* alien should already be here. The only aliens who come in from now on should be legally done.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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LadyElton
Fulla-Carp
I don't think Rick sees all illegal immigrants as poor men trying to feed their families. A large number of them are though. That isn't to say, none of them come here to mooch off the system. (I think many of them don't realize how hard it is to get by these days, even here in the US.) Personally, I think we should make it worth their while to obtain citizenship or a green card legally. Maybe offer a tax break for one year if they go about it legally and work to get off welfare. (They still have to pay taxes, but can get money off their imcome taxes.) But, they really have to prove it, not just lip-service.
Hilary aka LadyElton
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JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
maybe then I should sneak my wife across the border under a new name and put her on welfare so she can become a citizen more quickly and get a tax break on top of it.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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LadyElton
Fulla-Carp
It should still take 5 years to become a US citizen. Equal treatment to all. If you lie, you go bye-bye, as in back to where you came from.
Hilary aka LadyElton
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JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
It usually takes a lot longer than that. Remember, our immigration system is basically broken.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
LadyElton
May 5 2006, 12:09 PM
I don't think Rick sees all illegal immigrants as poor men trying to feed their families.

I'll quote him so you'll see how he sees them:

Quote:
 
...uneducated, poor immigrant from an impoverished village who comes across the border to try to make some money to better his life and send some back to his family to better their's and who does little more than work hard...
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
For every nice little family man or woman coming across our border simply wanting to earn a little money for his family, for every nice, cutesy cuddly person who fits your description, there is a violent criminal coming across as well.


Even though I agree with you basically on the immigration issue, I'd like to see some support for this 1:1 ratio. I think you pulled it out of your ass.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Nina
Senior Carp
The average wait for a green card into the U.S. is five years, assuming you qualify.

The average wait for family members to join their green card members is 4 to 23 years, depending on the country of origin and the relationship to the card holder.

The average wait for naturalization papers to be processed is about 9 months in 2001, before 9/11. That average is for all 50 states--the number varies widely from state to state.
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iainhp
Middle Aged Carp
Quote:
 
I'd love to see our borders tightened and our containers inspected more fully. I'd like to see a process where honest, law-abiding immigrants can legally come over to the US to work and earn a living.


So this brings up some other issues that are not really talked about.The west coast is generally the port of entry for products from Asia. However, for whatever reasons (unionised labor, costs, environmentalists,....) shippers are looking for new facilities to meet existsing demand and expected growth. Mexico is stepping up to the plate with plans for a mega port 150 miles south of the border.

Punta Colonet

In addition to this Shell and Sempra energy are planning an LNG facility half way between Tijuana and Ensenada, and Chevron and Texaco are planning a LNG re-gasification facility 13 miles offshore of Tijuana (close to the Coronado Islands). 4 other LNG facilities have been suggested in the region from Ventura to Ensenada, though their reality is doubtful.

LNG Terminals

Doing something about the illegal issue is going to have to be a large part of the regional security. Southern California and Baja are linked in many ways - if the populations of San Diego and Tijuana are taken as one it forms one of the highest population centers in North America. I am not in favour of any amnesty, but setting up a system of legalising the workforce from south of the border is a necessity. Once this is in place, policing the borders will be much easier as the only illegal crossers will be of the criminal kind. And rail lines cross the border to mega-container ports will be easier to police.

It also may interest you to know that the SD&AE Railroad (San Diego & Arizona Eastern) proposed re-opening a line that runs east from San Diego, for the purposes of freight transport. Currently all rail freight from San Diego has to go north to the LA area, before it can go east. While much of the line has been restored, Duncan Hunter basically killed the plan. The issue is that the line dips into Mexico for part of the route, and therefore is seen as an open conduit for illegals. (For movie bufs, some trivia - this line contains the largest wooden trestle bridge in the country and was seen in many westerns including the Magnificent Seven - Carrizo Gorge ).

Hunter testimony

Of further interest is San Diego's never ending search for a location for a new airport. One proposal a few years back was a bi-national airport, using the existing Tijuana airport and runways with new terminals constructed on the US side of the border (the runway sits right on the border). Again visons of illegals clinging to aircraft undercarriages as the crossed theborder killed the idea.

Report on Bi-national airport

San Diego and Tijuana have a long history of working together. Our fire engines help with large fires in TJ when called upon. CHP alerts Mexican counterparts when car chases are headed for the border. Recently there was a shortage of life guards on TJ beaches so SD lifeguards volunteered on their days off. TJs sewage ends up on SD beaches, so we provide sewage treatment. We are inexorably linked. We need some action from congress to solve the illegal situation. Then the president needs to have a heart to heart with Fox about improving life in his country for the working class, 'coz that's the real problem.

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