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So, which T-Shirt is Free Speech?
Topic Started: Apr 22 2006, 04:58 AM (437 Views)
George K
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Finally
Court says high school can enforce dress code against anti-gay T-shirt

SAN FRANCISCO - A suburban San Diego teenager who was barred from wearing a T-shirt with anti-gay rhetoric to class lost a bid to have his high school’s dress code suspended Thursday after a federal appeals court ruled the school could restrict what students wear to prevent disruptions.

The ruling by the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals addressed only the narrow issue of whether the dress code should be unenforced pending the outcome of the student’s lawsuit.

A majority of judges said, however, that Tyler Chase Harper was unlikely to prevail on claims that the Poway Unified School District violated his First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and religion for keeping him out of class when he wore a shirt with the message “homosexuality is shameful.”

Tyler Chase Harper sued the Poway Unified School District in San Diego federal court after the principal at Poway High School refused to let the student attend class wearing a T-shirt scrawled with the message “homosexuality is shameful.”

Harper was a sophomore at Poway High in 2004 when he wore the T-shirt the day after a group called the Gay-Straight Alliance held a “Day of Silence” to protest intolerance of gays and lesbians. The year before, the campus was disrupted by protests and conflicts between students over the Day of Silence.


But in Florida....


Bush-Bashing T-Shirt Leads To Broward School Changes

A Broward County high school student's Bush bashing T-shirt first grabbed the attention of his classmates, then administrators, then the ACLU. Now, the county school board has gotten involved.

Justin Cambest, 18, a Nova High School student, wore a shirt calling President George W. Bush an international terrorist.

Some students were offended and Cambest was told to remove the shirt, turn it inside out or take a suspension.

Cambest did something else. He called the ACLU, which threatened to sue.

Now, the Broward County School Board has agreed to rewrite portions of the student code to give students greater free speech protections.


An anti-gay t-shirt in school results in "a federal appeals court ruled the school could restrict what students wear to prevent disruptions," but an anti-Bush t-shirt in school results in a school board agreeing to "rewrite portions of the student code to give students greater free speech protections."

Aside to Kenny: This is NOT about gay rights. This is about what people are permitted to say. One case allows a statement by a student that some may find offensive. The other prohibits a statement that some may find offensive. The question is, who decides?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
In one case, a Florida school board makes changes, without court involvement. Who knows what would have happened if they stuck to their guns (so to speak)?

Since we don't have a court decision on constitutionality in both cases, you are comparing apples and oranges.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Is either shirt likely to incite hatred?

As far as I can tell, the only difference between being anti-gay and anti-Bush is that gay people can and do get beaten over their decisions. I don't know if Republican beating gangs are very common.

That being said, both shirts shouldn't be allowed in my view. A school should be allowed to write it's own rules and not be bullied into submission.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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QuirtEvans
Apr 22 2006, 08:06 AM
In one case, a Florida school board makes changes, without court involvement.  Who knows what would have happened if they stuck to their guns (so to speak)?

Exactly. The ACLU threatened to bring the school to court, and they dropped the restriction. I wonder if the ACLU would agree to pick up the case in California.

Something tells me, er, probably not.

Quote:
 
That being said, both shirts shouldn't be allowed in my view. A school should be allowed to write it's own rules and not be bullied into submission.


As the product (it shows, doesn't it) of a Domincan education, I was to wear a school uniform in high school. Underclassmen wore slacks, light colored shirt, necktie and school blazer. On Fridays, a sweater was permitted in place of the blazer. Upperclassmen did not have to wear the school blazer, but a sportcoat was required.

No political statements, no gang crap, no nothing.
"Sit down and learn, Mr. K."
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
George K
Apr 22 2006, 09:12 AM

No political statements, no gang crap, no nothing.
"Sit down and learn, Mr. K."

My school was a state run Church of England, with a uniform. Last time I was home, they were wearing the same uniform. Good thing too. Education shouldn't pander to the fashions of stupidity and ignorance which all this gang-related crap is. Political statements should also be left at home. The purpose of school is not to discover one's political alignment and sexual orientation, it's to learn about the world. Keep the little b'stards in their place.

God, I sound like a reactionary old Major. :lol:
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tcmod
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the solution is so easy...as said above....uniforms.

my suggestion.....

Posted Image
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
The question is where to draw the line between free speech and hate speech.

George - how about a t-shirt that said "Jews are insidious"? Or "Niggers go back to Africa"?

I suppose free speech purists would think these are OK. Most Americans, on the other hand, would not.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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jon-nyc
Apr 22 2006, 09:38 AM
The question is where to draw the line between free speech and hate speech.

George - how about a t-shirt that said "Jews are insidious"? Or "Niggers go back to Africa"?

Exactly the point, Jon. I don't know where the line should be drawn, but there should be one, I suppose.

Actually, the ACLU did support the Nazis march in Skokie, Il. a long time ago, and (I think) the Klan's protests in Cicero, Il.

The whole concept of "hate speech" is one that I find at once fascinating and disturbing. I wish I had a coherent opinion on the subject.

However, I like that uniform. :thumb:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
P.O.O.P

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o 0
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Mikhailoh
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jon-nyc
Apr 22 2006, 06:38 AM
The question is where to draw the line between free speech and hate speech.

George - how about a t-shirt that said "Jews are insidious"? Or "Niggers go back to Africa"?

I suppose free speech purists would think these are OK. Most Americans, on the other hand, would not.

I think it should be legal to wear that last one in certain designated 'free speech' zones. Detroit, Harlem, Atlanta.... :lol:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I like free speech.

I'm glad the ACLU defended the Nazis' right to march in a Jewish neighborhood. (Let dumb causes hurt themsleves, I say.)
I think anti-gay, anti-SUV or anti-anything slogans on a T-shirt are fine.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
T-shirts don't change minds; the effect is usually a wash anyway.

I don't think anyone should hate anyone; but I think we should be free to - a very important distinction.
There are already laws against harming anyone.
Extra punishment for a "hate-crime" is dumb.

I think that, overall, we lose more than we gain when we restrict freedoms.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Good post, Kenny. :thumb:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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DivaDeb
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No kidding, Kenny! I think that post was about the smartest thing anybody's said on this board in as long as I've been reading it!

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George K
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kenny
Apr 22 2006, 06:36 PM
I think extra punishment when it was a "hate-crime" is dumb.

What crime is not a hate crime?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Luke's Dad
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tcmod
Apr 22 2006, 10:29 AM
the solution is so easy...as said above....uniforms.

my suggestion.....

Posted Image

I'm with tcmod, all the way.


[size=1]psssst, tcmod, could you PM me a link to the website you pulled that from? :wink: [/size]
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Luke's Dad
Apr 22 2006, 04:08 PM
tcmod
Apr 22 2006, 10:29 AM
the solution is so easy...as said above....uniforms.

my suggestion.....

Posted Image

I'm with tcmod, all the way.


[size=1]psssst, tcmod, could you PM me a link to the website you pulled that from? :wink: [/size]

But I look terrible in red.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Apr 22 2006, 04:10 PM
But I look terrible in red.

I don't

tcmod...URL please :wink:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
kenny
Apr 22 2006, 07:36 PM
I like free speech.

I'm glad the ACLU defended the Nazis' right to march in a Jewish neighborhood. (Let dumb causes hurt themsleves, I say.)
I think anti-gay, anti-SUV or anti-anything slogans on a T-shirt are fine.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
The effect is usually a wash anyway.

I don't think anyone should hate anyone; but I think we should be free to - a very important distinction.
There are already laws against harming anyone.
Extra punishment for a "hate-crime" is dumb.

I think that, overall, we lose more than we gain when we restrict freedoms.

What about inciting others to hate?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, by the way, I'm just asking a question. If people start banging the drum of, for example, anti-semitism, and other people start killing Jews, at what point do we say 'enough, you can't say this anymore'. Generally, an angry slogan on a t-shirt makes you look like a bit of a tool, but on the other hand a very charismatic leader can cause a lot of harm with words, and he does bear some responsibility, particularly if he knows what he's doing.

Also, take the case of defending the anti-semitic march through a Jewish neighbourhood. Hypothetically, this situation could have led to a riot. What if a Jewish child was accidentally killed in this riot? Is this a price we're willing to pay to allow bigoted idiots have their say?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
All bad stuff but, not the fault of words on a T-shirt IMHO.

Fault of person who comitted the crime.
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tcmod
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Luke's Dad
Apr 22 2006, 04:08 PM
tcmod
Apr 22 2006, 10:29 AM
the solution is so easy...as said above....uniforms.

my suggestion.....

Posted Image

I'm with tcmod, all the way.


[size=1]psssst, tcmod, could you PM me a link to the website you pulled that from? :wink: [/size]

HA...you wish...that is actually my office assistant in her standard uniform. She is holding an ocular anatomy book. Did I mention I make 50k a day? :lol:



It was from some sexy-uniform website that took me forever to find. the things I do for this forum :wink:

oh...here it is http://www.threewisheslingerie.com/schoolgirl.asp
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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George K
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Finally
tcmod
Apr 22 2006, 07:56 PM
the things I do for this forum :wink:

And we are all grateful for your efforts. It wouldn't be the same without the dedication of some members here.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
My prediction is that site will see quite the spike in orders this weekend. They had some really hot french maid ones, a perennial fave here.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Now here is a school uniform:

Posted Image

Grades will probably not stay up as well as other things, however.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
I'm thinking she'll get an A+ no matter what, JB
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