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| Bach was a genius. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 21 2006, 10:03 PM (254 Views) | |
| pianojerome | Apr 21 2006, 10:03 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I get it. All of a sudden, it makes sense. and it's so beautiful. There're these few parts in Bach's Fugue in C-Sharp Major from WTC I that have really been bothering me this semester. Sure, I can play the notes, but I never really understood it. For example, measures 7-10. The top and middle voices seem to just blend together in one downward motion. But I always somehow wanted to distinguish between the two voices, because there are in fact two voices (plus the bass voice, but ignoring that for a moment). So at some point I got my hands on an open score, and saw how the two voices lay out, and then whenever I have been playing this, I have been trying to highlight just the top voice (and I figure if I can do that, the middle voice will also therefore be clear). But it's kind of hard to do that, and my timing wasn't always right, and it just didn't sound as good as I had hoped it would. Today, it hit me. I had an ephiphany. The second voice echos the first voice. ![]() Top voice -- G# E# Middle voice -- G# C# Top -- E# C# A# Middle -- C# A# D# Top -- A# D# Middle -- Fx B# Top -- D# B# G# Middle -- B# G# C# ..... It's so obvious now. So I can play it, and play the top voice louder and the middle voice softer, and really make it sound just like the middle voice echoing everything the top voice does (not the exact same notes, but the same patterns). Same sort of echoing going on in mm. 16-18 and mm. 48-51 (and sort of similar effect in mm. 28-29) and then add to that the relationship between the theme (top voice, mm. 1-2), the second theme (top voice, mm. 3-4), and the third theme (top voice, mm. 5-6). So basically, pretty much the entire fugue is composed either of some combination of the three themes or of an "echo" passage. (and just a few small little episodes here and there) Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... |
| Sam | |
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| bachophile | Apr 22 2006, 01:53 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Definition of Echolalia Echolalia: The involuntary parrotlike repetition (echoing) of a word or phrase just spoken by another person. Echolalia is a feature of schizophrenia (especially the catatonic form), Tourette syndrome, and some other disorders. From echo + the Greek lalia, a form of speech. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Phlebas | Apr 22 2006, 04:08 AM Post #3 |
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Bull-Carp
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Yep. Fugues tend to do that. Wasn't there someone in a Kurt Vonnegutt novel with echolalia? |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| apple | Apr 22 2006, 05:46 AM Post #4 |
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one of the angels
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echolalia - a beautiful word a beautiful word the finest word I've ever heard I've ever heard a special country in my head in my head that rules the voices I've not said I've not said |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| George K | Apr 22 2006, 05:57 AM Post #5 |
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Finally
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Can you say that in counterpoint? |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| apple | Apr 22 2006, 06:00 AM Post #6 |
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one of the angels
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sure! echolalia - a beautiful word, the finest word, a beautiful word, i've ever heard, echolalia the finest word i've heard a special country that rules the voices in my head that i've not said, a country in my head that rules the voices I've not said |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| JBryan | Apr 22 2006, 06:01 AM Post #7 |
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I am the grey one
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When I first started playing this piece I thought the first theme sounded kind of hokey. It sort of grew on me though and now it is one of my favorite peices to play. There is a lot you can do with phrasing that can make this echo thing Sam describes sound like dialog. In fact, I find that is true with a lot of these pieces. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Horace | Apr 22 2006, 06:44 AM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I love that part you've pictured, to me it's an explosion of joy after the introduction of the three voices. The tiny treble-most phrase just before it, that goes C#-B#-D# (the D# of which is actually pictured in the first measure of your picture) is a favorite of mine because it heralds that part. I'm always disappointed when I don't hear those 3 notes brought out in performances. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| George K | Apr 22 2006, 06:47 AM Post #9 |
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Finally
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You are brilliant! (and funny!) |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| kenny | Apr 22 2006, 06:50 AM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm an adult beginner and I learn slowly. I play a couple Bach pieces but not with multiple voices that you have to recognize and bring out. I expect this will be very hard for my aging peabrain. ![]() I look forward to the day when I can play these pieces. I am in awe of Bach. |
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| George K | Apr 22 2006, 06:53 AM Post #11 |
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Finally
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Kenny, I'm a beginner as well - at least this time around. Fugues are wonderful, if you can make them sing like a choir. I have four under my fingers, and that's not consistent. They tend to fall apart if my mind wanders at all. They demand total concentration and attention. Learn them slowly, very slowly....Get the fingering seared, seared into your memory. Be patient. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Dewey | Apr 22 2006, 10:24 AM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Based on this definition and an awful lot of the political debates around here, there are an awful lot of schizophrenics in our midst... :lol: |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| kenny | Apr 22 2006, 10:25 AM Post #13 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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We are not! At least WE are not! |
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| DivaDeb | Apr 22 2006, 10:28 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Exactly...and for those of you who haven't done so, I would highly recommend that you get hold of a few scores and recordings of some of the choral motets (Jesu, Meine Freude is my favorite and is very accessible), just so you get a really good feel for what Bach's vocal writing is like in the motet fugues. You will clearly recognize it when you return to your WTC and I think, personally, that it makes it much easier to understand the voice leading in the keyboard fugues when you really understand his writing for the voice. There is not one thing in the entirety of Bach's instrumental output that I can not imagine voices singing. Sometimes I even hear words (German words) that fit the rhythmic patterns in my head. |
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| Phlebas | Apr 22 2006, 10:35 AM Post #15 |
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Bull-Carp
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One of my favorite fugues: http://www.lycochoir.com/mp3s/1993choircd/...hicalfugue.html
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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10:53 AM Jul 11