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Cardinal backs condom use
Topic Started: Apr 21 2006, 09:20 AM (577 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Why does this stuff take so many words to explain? It's like reading a European Standard. If I'm forced to read all the rules regarding what I'm allowed to do behind closed doors, I'm going to forget all about any naughty ideas I had in the first place. Or is that the idea?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Christopher T
Apr 21 2006, 11:51 AM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 02:19 PM
Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)

Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive , that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these.  Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

This paragraph disagrees with the previous...

You quoted a different section to prove your point, and I am quoting this one, which proves mine.

Not at all, Chris -- the passage you are quoting refers explicitly to contraceptive acts.

Having sexual intercourse with the explicit intention of contracepting is very different from having sexual intercourse when there is no possibility of conception. Your first post was wrongly stating that the Catholic view of sex was that it was wrong apart from "baby making", and that couples could only morally have intercourse "only during the time period that the woman is most likely to get pregnant".

I don't see how this paragraph in any way proves your point, and it in no way disagrees with the previous passage.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Apr 21 2006, 11:58 AM
Why does this stuff take so many words to explain? It's like reading a European Standard. If I'm forced to read all the rules regarding what I'm allowed to do behind closed doors, I'm going to forget all about any naughty ideas I had in the first place. Or is that the idea?

It really doesn't take a lot of words. Simply: have fun, love your spouse, be open to the gift of life...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Christopher T
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Junior Carp
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:04 PM
Having sexual intercourse with the explicit intention of contracepting is very different from having sexual intercourse when there is no possibility of conception.

How does a person have intercourse with no possibility of conception without the use of contraception?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Christopher T
Apr 21 2006, 12:11 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:04 PM
Having sexual intercourse with the explicit intention of contracepting is very different from having sexual intercourse when there is no possibility of conception.

How does a person have intercourse with no possibility of conception without the use of contraception?

There are many couples past the age of child bearing, or who are otherwise infertile, who do this all the time. There are also many times (in fact most of the time) during the menstrual cycle when it is not possible (or virtually impossible) to conceive.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 10:10 AM
AlbertaCrude
Apr 21 2006, 11:01 AM
JBryan
Apr 21 2006, 09:31 AM
The rhythm method.

Or in other words, Vatican Roulette (Deerhunter edition).

You are too intelligent to think that is the Vatican's understanding of natural family planning.

Sorry, a lame attempt at being cleverly adolsexant.
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Christopher T
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Junior Carp
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146

So in Margaret Cho's words, "You have to have ASS IN MODERATION"!
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:07 PM

It really doesn't take a lot of words.  Simply: have fun, love your spouse, be open to the gift of life...

Are you familiar with the term 'Greek gift'?

The gift that keeps on taking. We are not infertile, but insolvent. :P
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:13 PM
There are also many times (in fact most of the time) during the menstrual cycle when it is not possible (or virtually impossible) to conceive.

My ex-girlfriend was conceived during one of these times. Her Italian father became an Anglican shortly afterwards.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Apr 21 2006, 12:36 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:13 PM
There are also many times (in fact most of the time) during the menstrual cycle when it is not possible (or virtually impossible) to conceive.

My ex-girlfriend was conceived during one of these times. Her Italian father became an Anglican shortly afterwards.

I suspect that the science of fertility management has advanced considerably since anyone who might be an ex-girlfriend of yours was conceived... :wink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:52 PM
John D'Oh
Apr 21 2006, 12:36 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:13 PM
There are also many times (in fact most of the time) during the menstrual cycle when it is not possible (or virtually impossible) to conceive.

My ex-girlfriend was conceived during one of these times. Her Italian father became an Anglican shortly afterwards.

I suspect that the science of fertility management has advanced considerably since anyone who might be an ex-girlfriend of yours was conceived... :wink:

:lol2:
Oh that was just nasty.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Isn't the use of the rhythm method predicated on having sex for other than the purpose of making babies? Under Christopher Ts interpretation the use of rhythm should be forbidden.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Apr 21 2006, 01:00 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:52 PM
John D'Oh
Apr 21 2006, 12:36 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 03:13 PM
There are also many times (in fact most of the time) during the menstrual cycle when it is not possible (or virtually impossible) to conceive.

My ex-girlfriend was conceived during one of these times. Her Italian father became an Anglican shortly afterwards.

I suspect that the science of fertility management has advanced considerably since anyone who might be an ex-girlfriend of yours was conceived... :wink:

:lol2:
Oh that was just nasty.

I can resist everything except temptation... :lol:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
JBryan
Apr 21 2006, 01:01 PM
Isn't the use of the rhythm method predicated on having sex for other than the purpose of making babies? Under Christopher Ts interpretation the use of rhythm should be forbidden.

Perhaps, but whatever merit ChrisT's interpretation might have (and none that I can detect), it's not the Catholic position.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Precisely my point. His interpretation would render the whole concept of rhythm nonsensical.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
JBryan
Apr 21 2006, 01:19 PM
Precisely my point. His interpretation would render the whole concept of rhythm nonsensical.

Except, on his terms, for only the purpose of procreation.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Christopher T
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Junior Carp
I know that you think you have proven "my" position wrong, but I beg you to take it up with the many many priests who I have discussed this with. I have certainly found opinions on this subject vary from priest to priest and from document to document...

What I have been taught by years of catholic schooling is that sex is strictly for procreation and any pleasure that you get out of it is just a lovely reward God stuck in there for trying to procreate.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Homosexuality - the Ultimate birth control!

100% effective!

All the sex you want - no diaper changing. :thumb:
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kenny
Apr 21 2006, 12:34 PM
Homosexuality - the Ultimate birth control!

100% effective!

All the sex you want - no diaper changing. :thumb:

Yeah, but I think some people would have a fit if they started preaching this as an alternative form of birth control in our nation's grade schools. :rolleyes:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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tcmod
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Senior Carp
kenny
Apr 21 2006, 12:34 PM
Homosexuality - the Ultimate birth control!

100% effective!

All the sex you want - no diaper changing. :thumb:

until the rectum prolapses...then it is diaper city baby!!
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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Christopher T
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Junior Carp
tcmod
Apr 21 2006, 04:37 PM
kenny
Apr 21 2006, 12:34 PM
Homosexuality - the Ultimate birth control!

100% effective!

All the sex you want - no diaper changing. :thumb:

until the rectum prolapses...then it is diaper city baby!!

Aw com'on - that's just crossing a line!

My raw green vegetable juice nearly came back up...
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 12:11 PM
JBryan
Apr 21 2006, 01:01 PM
Isn't the use of the rhythm method predicated on having sex for other than the purpose of making babies? Under Christopher Ts interpretation the use of rhythm should be forbidden.

Perhaps, but whatever merit ChrisT's interpretation might have (and none that I can detect), it's not the Catholic position.

Shades of Innocent III, but ChrisT may be a closet Albigensian.
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Christopher T
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Junior Carp
AlbertaCrude
Apr 21 2006, 04:39 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 21 2006, 12:11 PM
JBryan
Apr 21 2006, 01:01 PM
Isn't the use of the rhythm method predicated on having sex for other than the purpose of making babies? Under Christopher Ts interpretation the use of rhythm should be forbidden.

Perhaps, but whatever merit ChrisT's interpretation might have (and none that I can detect), it's not the Catholic position.

Shades of Innocent III, but ChrisT may be a closet Albigensian.

Damn I have done nothing at work today that was actual WORK...you guys certainly keep me busy!!
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Christopher T
Apr 21 2006, 01:32 PM
I know that you think you have proven "my" position wrong, but I beg you to take it up with the many many priests who I have discussed this with.  I have certainly found opinions on this subject vary from priest to priest and from document to document...

What I have been taught by years of catholic schooling is that sex is strictly for procreation and any pleasure that you get out of it is just a lovely reward God stuck in there for trying to procreate.

I appreciate that it is not "your" position, and that you are only recounting what a priest told you. I also appreciate that there are many diverse opinions both in and without the Church. That said, what you originally wrote is demonstrably not the authentic Catholic teaching on the topic.

I think most moral theologians today would hold that it is clear from a biological consideration that procreation is the primary good of sexual intercourse -- without it, the great good of life itself would cease -- but as human persons in relationship the unitive good cannot be separated from the act. The pleasure is also a very real good, but must be understood in respect to the other higher goods of procreation and unity.

Sorry if the foregoing sounds like a dry scholastic manual, but that's just an elaboration of "have fun, love your spouse, be open to the gift of life..."

PS: As far as I can tell, the documents from Casti Connubi onward have been internally consistent. What the priest or nun tells you may be quite different. I know hundreds of priests personally, and some of them have strong agendas that are at odds with the Church's teachings.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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