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| Cardinal backs condom use | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 21 2006, 09:20 AM (576 Views) | |
| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 09:20 AM Post #1 |
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MAMIL
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It's not snowing in hell yes, but there was a mild hoarfrost last night Cardinal backs condoms to protect against HIV
Talk about getting paid to state the bleedin' obvious. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| kenny | Apr 21 2006, 09:22 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I guess God changed her mind - Again. |
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| Christopher T | Apr 21 2006, 09:25 AM Post #3 |
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Junior Carp
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I thought sex was strictly for procreation? The use of a condom prevents disease but also prevents pregnancy! Hypocritical bastards. All of them. |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 09:25 AM Post #4 |
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MAMIL
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No, this is only the Cardinal's personal opinion. If we want to know what God thinks, we need to wait for the official announcement from Benny Hinn. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| pianojerome | Apr 21 2006, 09:26 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That's exactly what I was thinking. If the cardinals believe that waste of semen is a sin, then why would they allow a couple to have sex for any reason other than procreation? |
| Sam | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 09:27 AM Post #6 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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They are really trying to spin Martini as an authority. He was put out to pasture a few years ago and was not seriously considered as papabile in the last election. He speaks with NO authority and has NO office in the Church. It is purely his personal opinion. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 09:29 AM Post #7 |
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MAMIL
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Isn't any opinion just an opinion? In all seriousness, IT, what do you believe a couple should do if one of them has HIV? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Apr 21 2006, 09:31 AM Post #8 |
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I am the grey one
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The rhythm method. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2006, 09:33 AM Post #9 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Dunno about that!
I mean, there it is, right in the caption! Must be true! |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 09:33 AM Post #10 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Where did you get that bizarre notion? You ought to read on Catholic sexual morality -- such as Humane Vitae or John Paul II's series on The Theology of the Body so that you stop making such silly arguments. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 09:34 AM Post #11 |
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MAMIL
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When it comes to a partner with HIV, is the rhythm 1 beat on, 10,000 beats off (nyuck, nyuck, nyuck) |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| pianojerome | Apr 21 2006, 09:34 AM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sorry, that was my understanding of the biblical stance on homosexual intercourse, and I thought it would apply here. Though maybe I was just misinformed. |
| Sam | |
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| JBryan | Apr 21 2006, 09:36 AM Post #13 |
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I am the grey one
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The "beats off" part pretty well sums it up. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 09:37 AM Post #14 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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National Institute of Health gives a 5% rupture rate for condoms. Other studies give up to 11% leakage due to slippage and leakage and rupture. altheal.org You'd have to answer that question for yourself if exposing your spouse to that sort of risk is a loving act. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Christopher T | Apr 21 2006, 09:40 AM Post #15 |
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Junior Carp
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No, pianojerome, you are correct. I spent the first 20 years of my life going to church every Sunday, as well as holding a musical director position in a Catholic Church for 7 of those years. I consulted the pastor of the parish on this issue, and he gave me official Catholic doctrine reference materials that stated that sexual intercourse is strictly for "baby-making". It should only be experienced between heterosexual married couples, and only during the time period that the woman is most likely to get pregnant, the "natural family planning" method of birth control. I would suggest ivorythumper produce official doctrine documents to prove otherwise. |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 09:40 AM Post #16 |
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MAMIL
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Well, I must be a statistical anomaly, as I've never had one go kablammo. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 09:45 AM Post #17 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Chris: Your credentials are impressive indeed. ![]() I already provided "official doctrine documents" -- you actually have to click on those links (those underlined thingys). Read Humane Vitae and you will find out that you were misinformed. You can also check the Catholic Catechism 2331-2400. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Christopher T | Apr 21 2006, 10:00 AM Post #18 |
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Junior Carp
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I certainly don't trust the CDC's statistics considering it's a government funded organization (they changed statistics as soon as Bush was placed in office), but I would say these are more accurate than the statistics you published: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/transmission.htm Effectiveness of Condoms Condoms are classified as medical devices and are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Condom manufacturers in the United States test each latex condom for defects, including holes, before it is packaged. The proper and consistent use of latex or polyurethane (a type of plastic) condoms when engaging in sexual intercourse--vaginal, anal, or oral--can greatly reduce a person’s risk of acquiring or transmitting sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV infection. There are many different types and brands of condoms available--however, only latex or polyurethane condoms provide a highly effective mechanical barrier to HIV. In laboratories, viruses occasionally have been shown to pass through natural membrane ("skin" or lambskin) condoms, which may contain natural pores and are therefore not recommended for disease prevention (they are documented to be effective for contraception). Women may wish to consider using the female condom when a male condom cannot be used. For condoms to provide maximum protection, they must be used consistently (every time) and correctly. Several studies of correct and consistent condom use clearly show that latex condom breakage rates in this country are less than 2 percent. Even when condoms do break, one study showed that more than half of such breaks occurred prior to ejaculation. When condoms are used reliably, they have been shown to prevent pregnancy up to 98 percent of the time among couples using them as their only method of contraception. Similarly, numerous studies among sexually active people have demonstrated that a properly used latex condom provides a high degree of protection against a variety of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV infection. |
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| AlbertaCrude | Apr 21 2006, 10:01 AM Post #19 |
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Bull-Carp
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Or in other words, Vatican Roulette (Deerhunter edition). |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 10:02 AM Post #20 |
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MAMIL
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It's often difficult to tell who's in an who's out. Cardinal Bernard Law, formerly of Boston, for example, was apparently in disgrace and everything before being invited to conduct a Mass in St. Peter's Basilica before the current pope was elected. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 10:09 AM Post #21 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Either way, Chris --2% or 11%-- it's a numbers game. The HIV infected partner is still exposing their spouse to serious risk of disease. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 10:10 AM Post #22 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You are too intelligent to think that is the Vatican's understanding of natural family planning. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Christopher T | Apr 21 2006, 10:13 AM Post #23 |
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Junior Carp
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From Humanae Vitae: Observing the Natural Law 11. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.'' (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed. The fact is, as experience shows, that new life is not the result of each and every act of sexual intercourse. God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12) So, basically, if you have sex and you don't get pregnant (even though that should be the point behind the sex in the first place), you don't need to feel guilty??? More: Unlawful Birth Control Methods 14. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15) Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16) Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong. ivory - I believe you are losing track of your double negatives... |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2006, 10:19 AM Post #24 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Huh? The quotes that you give prove my point and disprove yours that
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Christopher T | Apr 21 2006, 10:51 AM Post #25 |
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Junior Carp
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This paragraph disagrees with the previous... You quoted a different section to prove your point, and I am quoting this one, which proves mine. |
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10:53 AM Jul 11