| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| "Peace (and doubt) Be With You"; Saturday's sermon | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2006, 01:40 PM (532 Views) | |
| Dewey | Apr 20 2006, 01:40 PM Post #1 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
... which is based on the following snippet from the gospel according to John (chapter 20, verses 19-29): When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he said to them, ‘Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.’ A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.’ Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.’ .... So here are the disciples, meeting together shortly after they had seen the full, raw power of the authorities come crushing down on Jesus – the man that they’d followed, lived with, loved, and had learned from over the past several years. And now, he was dead. Pale, cold, cloudy-eyed, rigor mortis dead. And in his death, their hope that Jesus was the Messiah who would save Israel seem to die too, leaving them disillusioned and confused. It also left them scared. Because while they didn’t know what to do next, they did know that the authorities weren’t afraid to use their power to squash troublemakers like them – and now, with Jesus gone, they were afraid that the authorities would come after them next. So they came together this night, behind locked doors. Maybe they had to give some secret knock on the door to get in. There were probably a few nervous lookouts stationed outside in the cool darkness of the night. Inside, they tried to make sense out of the events of that morning – the empty tomb, and the women’s reports of an angel telling them that Jesus had risen from the dead – that Christ himself had even appeared to one of them. And then, into the middle of this confused scene, Christ appears from out of nowhere and says, “Peace be with you!” Why did Christ appear this way to the disciples? Why the David Copperfield-style dramatics – couldn’t he just show up & walk in the door like everyone else? Why, in several post-resurrection appearances, does he appear in a way the people don’t recognize him at first, and it’s only after a while that Christ reveals himself? Actually, I think it’s a reflection of Christ’s humanity. The gospels don’t really say anything directly about Jesus having a sense of humor, but being human, he must have. And I think in these appearances, we’re really missing something if we don’t see Christ sharing his victory with those he knew and loved, in a way that I can only see as very human and playful - and maybe even a little ornery. Take this scene off the printed page, and put it into reality. Here’s the risen Christ, at first undoubtedly scaring the disciples out of their wits, then showing them all his wounds – almost like an old friend showing you his surgery scar, or an army buddy showing where he took a piece of shrapnel. The passage just says that when they saw the risen Lord, they rejoiced. “Rejoiced.” That single word seems too bland and inadequate to capture the happiness, the tears of joy, the hugs, and the laughter that had to have filled the room that night. Now, I’m not trying to paint a picture of this meeting in any way demeaning to Christ – quite the opposite, actually. This very intimate, human way that he was interacting with them should encourage us all. He’s one of us. He gets us, and he enjoys fellowship with us. Fully God, yet fully comfortable in his humanity. Beyond the humanity, there’s also something almost mystical going on in this story, too. The text says that that night, Christ “breathed on them,” giving them the Holy Spirit, and he commissioned them to proclaim the gospel, saying, “as the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Do you get that? Do you notice the parallel here between the account of creation in Genesis, with God breathing life into the first human, and to go out into creation, and multiply; and Christ breathing the Holy Spirit into the disciples, and sending them out into creation to proclaim the gospel and multiply believers in the good news. In a way, Christ is making a “second creation” – a new creation, a new kind of human, a new kind of relationship between God and us. This story ends in another scene, the well-known story of Thomas, the apostle who missed that first gathering, and didn’t originally believe the disciples’ stories that Jesus had risen. And honestly, can you blame him? Would you have believed them? I don’t think I would have. Thomas was a sane, rational person, and he wisely doubted when things didn’t square with his hard-earned understanding of reality. I mean, people don’t just rise from the dead every day. So, he doubted. And like him, so do we. At different times, we all have some doubts and questions: How could there possibly be a good and all-powerful God when there’s so much pain and suffering in the world? Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Are the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all doomed to hell because they aren’t Christians? If God promises to give us what we ask for, why did my daughter still die of cancer even after I prayed my eyes out for her? And on, and on, a hundred times over. Actually, doubt can be an important part of our faith. We’re all on a lifelong journey of spiritual growth, and often, examining our doubts is the very tool that enables our faith to grow stronger. There’s a wonderful story in the gospel according to Mark that tells of a man who came to Jesus with his demon-possessed son, hoping Jesus would heal the boy. Jesus told the man that all things were possible to those who believe. And in one of the most powerful and poignant statements in the entire Bible, the father answers, “Lord, I believe; help me in my unbelief.” And just as he healed this man’s boy, Christ doesn’t demand that we be completely doubt-free before he’ll work in our lives, either. If you remember one thing about doubt, let it be this: that no matter how deep our doubt, at its bottom, right there with us, is Christ. He reached out to help Thomas in his doubt, and he reaches out to us. He doesn’t condemn or criticize us just because we have doubts. As only he can, he meets us in our doubts, telling us he’ll always be with us. He looks into our hearts, smiles, and says, “Peace be with you.” Amen. |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 20 2006, 02:18 PM Post #2 |
|
![]() Very well done. I liked how you combined this very key statement:
Along with the practical application (or understanding) of doubt in our lives. I hope you are keeping all of these sermons in a book or something... |
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 21 2006, 03:19 AM Post #3 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
Blessed are the gullible, the credulant, those who believe without cause, blessed are those doomed for delusion. Makes sense of course, if we said blessed are those who doubt and yea you other guys, ok fine but really you should learn how to think otherwise you're headed for fantasy, well then religion would be shooting itself in the foot. That's what this emphasis on belief is:
Believe for the sake believing, believe irrespective of basis and you will be rewarded. The virtue of not using ones brain. It's amazing how easily manipulated we are, the usual concept of belief is silly to begin with, the idea of belief in itself being "good" is at best absurd at worst incoherent, and the idea of belief being particularly blessed if it lacks reason... well... yea. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| bachophile | Apr 21 2006, 03:26 AM Post #4 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." Alice in Wonderland. just thought of this quote while reading. i also believe impossible things. sue me. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Apr 21 2006, 03:36 AM Post #5 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
If all we believed in was what we we personally understood, that would be a poor existence indeed. Like Bach, I believe impossible things. |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 04:56 AM Post #6 |
|
MAMIL
|
I also believe in the impossible. Here's a few examples: - A deaf human being wrote Beethoven's Ninth symphony without divine intervention. - My wife agreed to marry me, and still hasn't figure out where she went wrong. - Ronald Reagan was elected President of the United States of America, TWICE - People are often nice for no good reason. - Something made from boggy water, and flavoured with seaweed, peat, wood and salt is absolutely delicious ![]() Isn't the world a wonderful place? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 21 2006, 07:49 AM Post #7 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
I agree, but that has no bearing on my point. I 'believe' in the apparently impossible too, doesn't mean i 'believe' without basis. Oh well perhaps when i've lost my faculty of reason i will become blessed. Go go dementia. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Apr 21 2006, 08:36 AM Post #8 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
So what impossible things do you believe in.. with basis? |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 21 2006, 09:43 AM Post #9 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
That's easy: quantum mechanics. I don't understand QM, the interpretations i've grasped are decidedly impossible in the common sense way: You cast your eye up to the night sky and your retina catches a stray photon, one that has travelled across space for millions of years, but this action, this measurement changes the path this photon has been travelling! Merely looking up at the sky acts to write the history of reality. Or perhaps we cast aside constent histories and favour a positivistic Copenhagen approache so then it becomes meaningless to assign reality values outside context of measurement, does the moon exist when you are not looking? says Einstein - you are asking a meaningless question says Bohr. Or we could take a leaf out of Franks book and suggest a master reality hidding in mathematical abstractions and perpetually out of reach as much of the information hemmorages away before it reaches us. Physics confounds us with the apparently impossible everyday, there are many things that i do not fully comprehend - the only criterea an idea needs for me to consider it is that it means something (anything). Reality is probably beyond human conception, it might even be beyond mathematical abstraction (though i'm not entirely sure what that would mean - another example of accepting the apparently impossible), that doesn't mean that giving up and picking whatever the hell you like to believe is a good strategy - it's not, it's essentially choosing a random subset of statements that could inprinciple be true, to believe in, but since for every true statement there are a near infinite number of false ones, this would seem to be the worst strategy possible. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| Jolly | Apr 21 2006, 10:00 AM Post #10 |
![]()
Geaux Tigers!
|
Nice sermon. Now go back and get me another 12-15 minutes. Seriously...my God has calloused hands. And I think that's wonderful. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 21 2006, 10:34 AM Post #11 |
|
Quite the opposite actually. Those with faith, who believe in what they cannot see but can feel, they are the ones who not only use their brains to understand what is obvious and tangible, but also what we can't see or know, but can believe. That, my friend, is really using your brain. |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2006, 10:52 AM Post #12 |
|
MAMIL
|
That's a little controversial. I think in many cases that belief is more of an emotional or intuitive response than an intellectual one, and that the intellect is then used in a secondary way to logically justify the initial response. There's nothing wrong with that, either. There's plenty of very intelligent people who are religious, as well as plenty who aren't. (And yes, I do realise you were responding to an unfair comment) |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 21 2006, 11:13 AM Post #13 |
|
No worries John...I do agree that faith or belief is based on emotional and intangible reasons...but I think that would make it even more of a brain-driven belief. Kinda like using your imagination or abstract thought.
|
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2006, 11:15 AM Post #14 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Nope, sorry. I can tell you my faith isn't brain-driven. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 21 2006, 11:17 AM Post #15 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
I believe in what i cannot see but can feel, i recall walking into a glass door at one point, a few seconds afterwards i was fairly convinced of it's existence. Deduction based on other input is still rational. My point is that Jesus extols the virtue of belief for the sake of belief, the power of belief, the blessed believers. How do you get someone to believe something that has no basis? Well if you convince them the end result is "good" you dress it up enough (particularly if you get them young enough) then they fall for it, they can jump straight to the belief bit without any consideration of basis. It's a strangely brilliant idea. What one feels in an emotional sense is generally an amazingly poor guide to truth, it's emotional involvement that blinds us of objectivity, that totally skews our analysis in favour of the things we like the look of. In medical research they use double blinded trials because even when people are trying to consciously not let their feelings seep into their analysis it still does and still screws it all up. I once spoke to a Muslim, he was what 18, i was talking to him about religion, and I put to him that if he had been born in the US he would be a Christian, his response to disagree and explain that if he had been born in the US then Allah would have reached across and converted him. He felt absolute sure this was the case. In fact he even used those words, he said he felt it was true. He had no arguments at all, after i gave arguments against religion, he had no counter arguments - (there are arguments they just all fail) instead his reasoning was that as he had heard all these arguments and yet still believed therefore he must be right. It's was fun staring insanity in the face. Right now i can see i would find many aspects of religion particularly Christianity very appealing, if i didn't know what i know, if lacked clarity on an intellectual level i would probably be one of you people, lifted up by my delusion. The fact that it felt good would inoculate me to reason the way it inoculates you, fortunately or perhaps unfortunately that is not the case. I can see the emotional pull and yet see the falseness of the whole thing simultaneously - and that is really using your brain. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 21 2006, 11:20 AM Post #16 |
|
I'm saying it literally is. Perhaps not "brain" as in 1+1, but "brain" as in what physically allows you to think of abstract ideas and accept them, like faith in God. |
![]() |
|
| Horace | Apr 21 2006, 11:28 AM Post #17 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I hear this a lot but I've never bought it. How brilliant could an idea be if every culture in the history of the world has come up with it? (All in mutually exclusive ways of course.) |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 21 2006, 11:30 AM Post #18 |
|
I pray that one day you will be able to be filled with the wonderful spirit of God and Know him personally.
|
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2006, 11:33 AM Post #19 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Not at all. Faith is a spiritual thing, not intellectual or emotional. The brain may help me iron out my concept of faith, but faith itself does not come from biological processes in my cerebral cortex. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 21 2006, 12:16 PM Post #20 |
|
Oh, well I was just saying that it's our brain (by default) that allows us to physically process such abstract ideas, even more so than seeing a color and saying "red". Our brain, IMO, does extra work to process and understand the abstract theory of theology. (not to be confused with what you're saying - the source of spirtuality) |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2006, 12:17 PM Post #21 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
Well sure, the brain helps my understanding of my faith, but without that understanding (and by that I guess I mean, without the brain's help), the faith would still be there. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 22 2006, 02:31 AM Post #22 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
Well in terms of some of the similarities between different religions I think we can go some way towards explanation in terms of competition, there are numerous competing belief systems, those that 'survive' will have attributes allowing them to survive. It's an evolution of ideas, the solutions to "how does an idea get propogated when it has no rational basis" is "using emotional attachment". Thus when we look around at the beliefs that lack basis we shouldn't be too surprised to see that they all revolve around emotional interactions, meaning, and the like. Ideas with no basis but without those psychological draws simply die out. In terms of the specific example of believe for the sake of belief, i'm not entirely sure that is true across every culture, is the concept of faith really universal? Were the beliefs in the Gods of the Romans and the Greeks laced with this intellectual short circuit, did the Australian Aborigines who believed in Dreamtime propogate the idea that belief is itself a good? I'd be suprised if it were a true universal, because you would think there have been belief systems that emerged in a vaccum and did not compete. It is however concievable that it is widespread, because the faith concept it does seem to offer an advantage to the belief system, particularly in terms of resisting reasoning. Whilst you only need go back a few hundred years before you see the design inference having a lot of merit and through that the need to resist scientific reasoning is almost negated, however there is the battle for conversion, and then belief _in my religion_ for the sake of belief can be used to fend off rival Gods. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 22 2006, 02:58 AM Post #23 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
How many would pray that you be filled with the spirit of Allah and renounce your evil Christian ways? There are/have been zillions of different religions past and present each has been (or is) manned by an army of believers certain in their particular brand, conviction through feeling clearly results in contradiction. The reason why intellect trumps feeling is because intellect can explain why the feelings are there, why feeling does not guide us to truth, and can give examples showing feeling not leading to truth. I appreciate your sentiments though, and thank you for the intentions. You are an interesting case 89th i initially wrote you off as moron extraudinaire but in retrospect that was far too harsh. You're not stupid just ideologically blinded. You are young and hence in theory more flexible but your tendency for strong opinion counteracts that, you carry with you an extensive world view like someone older; a set of ideas woven together that guides your view points and gives meaning to your experiences, current and previous. The psychological barriers protecting this are thus going to be huge. As a result I doubt any amount of reasoned argument will ever penetrate your core religious ideas, never the less some of your opinions on ethics and politics seem to me to have subtly shifted towards a more reasoned position over the last year or so and I find that impressive. So uh i guess
|
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Apr 22 2006, 09:05 AM Post #24 |
|
Well thanks for the "kind" words, Moonbat. ![]() I do admit that much of what I believe are based emotions that transcend tangible understanding. In fact, I full accept that, and encourage others to as well. Especially when it doesn't harm or affect others and IMO is actually more beneficial to society. I guess I won't be seeing you in tomorrow though.
|
![]() |
|
| Moonbat | Apr 22 2006, 10:09 AM Post #25 |
![]()
Pisa-Carp
|
I can grasp letting people do whatever the hell they like if they don't affect others - (though i fail to see how that can apply to religion). But to encourage people not to think about things, not to analyse, to go simply on how something feels. This seems the height of madness. We know that how stuff feels cannot be a good guide to truth as it leads to contradiction. Different people are lead to different conclusions, which cannot all be correct. Emotion and feeling can guide us personally, they can colour our existence they make life worth living but they cannot give us truth. If we blindly follow feeling as our guide to truth then we will simply end up believing what we find most comfortable irrespective of how likely it is to be true from an objective stand point. All those nutter fundamentalists terrorist out there, what do you think drives their absolute-certainty that the West is a bastion of evil, that killing themselves and as many others as possible will result in an eternity of bliss? It's not reason doing that, it's subconscious feeling, it's exactly the same kind of conviction that i would say falls to pieces when analysed and they would no doubt say transcends analysis. There are many many people in South Africa who do not believe that AIDS is caused by the HIV virus, again it's not reason feeding that conclusion, if it were education would have triumphed long ago. The problem is reason is resisted, why? People feel the answer is wrong. Feeling-fed conviction that spirits and satantic forces are responsible for disease and suffering, blinds them to the truth, and condems the next generation of AIDS sufferers to death. When you argue with people about politics, you use points, you analyse their statements attempt to point out holes if they respond you have counter points. If feeling is a valid way of finding answers then surely the entire idea of presenting an argument becomes irrelevent. Suppose you were arguing a topic and you could completely demolish your opponents arguments, you could show precisely why they were wrong precisely why what you were saying was right, and they turned round and said "yea but i feel it's wrong". What then? Presumably you think that you've obliterated arguments on this board several times, and yet your opponents are rarely convinced, why do you think that is? It's because feeling is either biasing your analysis of your arguments or it's biasing their analysis of your arguments. Whilst people often call each other stupid we all know it's not true. That's one of the really hard things to accept, that guy you're talking to saying something so obviously wrong is not stupid, he's not uneducated, he's just completely unaware of his subconscious which is preventing him from seeing your argument. In this world of shadows, if we really want a shot at truth, we have to work at it, there are no short cuts we must think things through, weigh evidence, analyse arguments for flaws. To give in merely to what we feel is to lose our way.
Anytime :).
Fraid not =). |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2












10:53 AM Jul 11