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| Don't Show Up For Work We'll Fire You; Legal or Not | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 12 2006, 08:35 AM (700 Views) | |
| George K | Apr 12 2006, 08:35 AM Post #1 |
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Finally
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Immigrants' firing leads to protest 15 women lose jobs after attending rally; manager says they were warned BY NIRAJ WARIKOO FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER April 11, 2006 Activists wait to see the owner of the Wolverine Packing Co. in Detroit on Monday. Speaking with Elena Herrada are, from left, Ignacio Meneses, Rosendo Delgado and company worker Steve Reppenhagen. (MARY SCHROEDER/Detroit Free Press) A manager at a Detroit meatpacking plant said Monday that 15 immigrant women were fired last month after attending a protest for immigrant rights. He said they had been told that they would be terminated if they missed work on the day of the protest. But the workers and an activist working on their behalf said the women were given no such assurances. If the workers knew they would have been fired for attending the March 27 rally in Detroit, they never would have skipped the morning shift, said Elena Herrada, a Detroit activist who is trying to help the women get their jobs back. Herrada and about 20 union officials went Monday to Wolverine Packing Co. offices on Rivard to inquire about what happened. They were given a letter signed by general manager Jay Bonahoom, explaining why the workers were terminated. Meanwhile Monday, marches were held in Washington, D.C., Atlanta and other cities to protest proposed changes in immigration rules. On Sunday, hundreds gathered at Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in Detroit. Some of the Wolverine workers were undocumented, Herrada and one of the workers said, and wanted to march in the Detroit rally to show their support for immigrant rights. Tens of thousands of people, mostly Latinos, protested legislation that would make it a crime to help undocumented immigrants. The next morning, when the women reported to work for their shifts as meat cutters, a supervisor told them to clean out their lockers and go home. Bonahoom said that as far as Wolverine knows, the workers were documented, but an employment agency does the actual hiring. He said the workers had been told, "written and verbally," on the Friday before the protests that their attendance was mandatory on the day of the protest. They were fired "for standing up for their rights," Herrada said. The fired workers were natives of Mexico and many had worked at the plant for several years. Most have children and are worried about supporting their families, Herrada said. Many were employed by Minuteman Staffing. So when Wolverine wanted to fire the workers, the meatpacking company told Minuteman to let go of the workers, he said. A manager with Minuteman said he couldn't comment on the case. But the workers say they were treated wrongly. "It was not fair,'" said Mercedes, a 31-year-old Detroit woman who attended the rally and was fired. "We went to fight for our rights." Mercedes is undocumented and asked that her last name not be used. "It was really unfair of a company to do that," said Edith Castillo, head of the Detroit-based Latin Americans for Social and Economic Development. =-=-=-=-= I don't know about you, but if I blew off work to go to a rally, or something else for personal reasons, I could safely assume that my job was in jeopardy. And, it would be my fault. I wouldn't be having an activist trying to get me my job back. But then again, I wouldn't just blow off work for a rally either. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 12 2006, 08:57 AM Post #2 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Ironic that the workers were employed by "Minuteman Staffing"!
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 12 2006, 09:33 AM Post #3 |
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MAMIL
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In other news: Police have had an unexpected bonanza after a recent protest over prison over-crowding, when they re-arrested 4 escaped convicts who were attending in order to highlight the difficulties of their former fellow inmates. 'Slasher' Jim Gregson, and Arnie 'Mad-dog' White were re-arrested, along with Joe 'The Butcher' Bolton and a man known only as 'Psycho'. 'It's not fair', said Gregson, 'we woz only protesting wot they dun to us, we human too, you know. They should a' given us a runnin' start or summink, but they don' shopped us to the rozzers'. Mr. Bolton, who since his escape in 2003 had been working as a campaign co-ordinator for a local children's charity, said that he felt alienated by society, and would continue working 'Psycho' was unavailable for comment. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Apr 12 2006, 09:39 AM Post #4 |
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I am the grey one
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:lol: |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| kathyk | Apr 12 2006, 10:41 AM Post #5 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I think it's an outrage that they're butchering those poor, defenseless animals. Aren't wolverines on some sort of endangered list. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 12 2006, 10:56 AM Post #6 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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An Emily Litella moment. :lol: |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kathyk | Apr 12 2006, 11:11 AM Post #7 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Never mind. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| QuirtEvans | Apr 12 2006, 11:16 AM Post #8 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Actually, I agree. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 12 2006, 11:19 AM Post #9 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Yep, me too. I've had a couple jobs where they didn't give any kind of a crap why I missed work. My responsibility to find a replacement for my shift. So, whar's the fire? |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Newpianoplayer | Apr 12 2006, 06:15 PM Post #10 |
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Senior Carp
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"The next morning, when the women reported to work for their shifts as meat cutters, a supervisor told them to clean out their lockers and go home." Was Wolverine affected by 15 of its meat cutters not showing up. They probably thought there was safety in numbers. |
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| garrett | Apr 12 2006, 10:26 PM Post #11 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Living in Texas, we have a significant number of Mexican Restaurants. For some reason, me and the GF decided to go to a Mexican Food Restaurant that day (somehow, the protests slipped our minds when deciding where to go). I was on a tight time schedule at the time and after going to one place that was "mysteriously" closed for the day, we ended up at an "On The Border". Upon walking in you never would have guessed that they were short on staff (they had more waiters than...), but our waiter informed us that they would have a limited menu due to most of their cooks attending a nearby protest. Food for thought ('er something). |
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| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2006, 03:57 AM Post #12 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Apparently, George, it was a widespread phenomenon. From today's New York Times. ---------- For Immigrants and Business, Rift on Protests By MONICA DAVEY Published: April 15, 2006 In Bonita Springs, Fla., 10 restaurant workers were fired this week after skipping their shifts to attend a rally against legislation in Congress cracking down on illegal immigrants. In Tyler, Tex., 22 welders lost their jobs making parts for air-conditioners after missing work for a similar demonstration in that city. And so it went for employees of an asbestos removal firm in Indianapolis, a restaurant in Milwaukee, a meatpacking company in Detroit, a factory in Bellwood, Ill. In the last month, as hundreds of thousands of people around the country have held demonstrations pressing for legal status and citizenship for illegal immigrants, companies, particularly those that employ large numbers of immigrants, have found themselves wrestling with difficult and uncharted terrain. They worry about how to keep their businesses operating, fully staffed, but also not to appear insensitive to a growing political movement that in many cases sustains their work force. Some fired workers have complained that they were being singled out for their political views, and a few have filed formal complaints with the National Labor Relations Board. Other protesters have cut deals with their employers to work extra shifts in exchange for time off, or to close down their small businesses entirely, in deference to the sentiment behind the demonstrations. In at least one instance, nearly 200 fired workers in Wisconsin were reinstated, demonstration leaders said, after the leaders met with employers, discussed the significance of the protests and threatened to identify the companies publicly. "I have no problem with the demonstration, but this is a business," said Charley Bohley, an owner of Rodes restaurant and fishmarket in Bonita Springs, who fired the 10 workers there after posting a note warning employees that they could not miss work for a rally on Monday. "Couldn't they have protested in the morning before work? Couldn't they have protested in their hearts?" Though the number of workers who have lost their jobs across the country, estimated in the hundreds, is small compared with the numbers marching in the streets, some protest organizers say word of the firings spread rapidly and might have a chilling effect on many more workers and on students, some of whom also say they have faced discipline for missing school for rallies. The firings have also forced some organizers to rethink how best to plan future demonstrations, and some are considering opting out of events now in the works. In Washington, Jaime Contreras, the president of the National Capital Immigration Coalition, said his coalition voted on Thursday night not to take part in a proposed national boycott or strike set for May 1. Jose I. Sanchez, an organizer in Texas, said his group was considering holding a rally on the Sunday before May 1 instead, just to avoid such strains. "We shouldn't put our progress in jeopardy," Mr. Contreras said. "That is a tool you use when you have to, but you have to be completely prepared for backlash and repercussions." In many cities, rally organizers said, plenty of businesses, many of which have pushed for efforts to give legal status to immigrants, cooperated with the demonstrations and allowed workers time off. In Indianapolis, one company went so far as to let 2,000 people leave their jobs for Monday's demonstration downtown, said Ken Moran, an organizer. "The firings we've seen were an anomaly," Mr. Moran said, "but it's a sad situation." In complaints filed with the government in one case, Mark A. Sweet, a lawyer for two fired restaurant workers in Milwaukee, said the restaurant had violated the National Labor Relations Act by firing the workers for what he considered legally protected activities: efforts to assist in the mutual aid and protection of themselves and other immigrant workers. Other legal experts, however, questioned whether such a provision would apply to a public rally, and suggested that the workers had few remedies. For the most part, "at-will" employees may be fired at any time, for any reason, said Charles B. Craver, a professor at The George Washington University Law School. "For private employers, there is normally no special First Amendment right to get out of work to engage in a protest," said Rodney A. Smolla, the dean of the University of Richmond School of Law. "A company might decide that it's good for morale to accommodate the exercise of freedom of speech on an issue that is very important to people, but that's an employment judgment not law." In Tyler, Tex., Maria Rodriguez described on Friday how she and others had lost their jobs putting together equipment for air-conditioners for Benchmark Manufacturing Inc. Ms. Rodriguez, 32, who said she had made $6.75 an hour after several years with the company, said she had always been given time off in the past for personal appointments. This time, though, she was fired, she said. "To me it seemed unfair," Ms. Rodriguez said. Even as she was being fired, she said, she saw applicants arriving at the company to replace her. Benchmark Manufacturing issued a statement outlining the company's absence policy, and adding, "This issue is not about going to the rally, it is about following the company policies that govern every employee." Against the backdrop of the broader immigration debate, the firings raised another tangled issue for some of the companies and for the workers: the legal status of those employees removed. Ms. Rodriguez, a native of Mexico, said she moved to the United States 14 years ago and did not have legal status. Some other advocates for those fired in other states said they did not know the legal status of the workers. Elsewhere, after advocates intervened, some workers were rehired this week. At Wolverine Packing in Detroit, company officials said they invited 21 fired workers — 20 of whom were considered temporary workers — to return to their jobs, with back pay, on Monday. The company, meanwhile, issued a statement saying it planned to recheck employment documentation "due to reports that some of the temporary staffers may have been illegal." Elena Herrada, who met with the company on behalf of the workers, said she did not know if any of them were in the United States illegally. The employees were already unhappy with their working conditions, Ms. Herrada said, and none were planning to return. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| George K | Apr 15 2006, 05:43 AM Post #13 |
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Finally
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Thanks for the article Quirt, it's an interesting read. I found these statements to be particularly interesting:
I know of at least 3 "at will" employees who were dismissed for no documented reason (there were reasons, however - just not documented). That's the law. I also find it interesting that people are talking about First Amendment rights in this context. Of course my boss doesn't have to let me out to attend a protest. That doesn't infringe my first amendment rights. However, the fact that we are talking about constitutional rights in the context of non-citizens is, well, interesting. It is ironic, no, that people who break the law to enter this country (put their (ig)noble motivations aside) complain that they have no "rights." |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2006, 06:50 AM Post #14 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I agree with the quoted part, George. Let me put a gloss on it, though. An at will employee can be fired for any reason, or for no reason at all. They cannot be fired, however, for a *bad* reason. They cannot be fired because of their skin color, or their sex, or their sexual orientation. That's what the argument often comes down to. Those are *bad* reasons. Immigration status is not a *bad* reason. Political viewpoints are not a *bad* reason. The First Amendment protects you against government action; it does not protect you against lawful consequences of expressing your political views. A company can legally hire only registered Republicans, and can fire anyone who is discovered to be a Democrat. They can't fire the same person for being gay, though. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Jolly | Apr 15 2006, 07:04 AM Post #15 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Unauthorized leave from the job, or an abandonment of a job is grounds for termination. Even for government employees. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2006, 07:13 AM Post #16 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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True. Although it's very hard to argue that an unauthorized absence for one day constitutes abandonment. But you are right about unauthorized absences. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Apr 15 2006, 09:44 AM Post #17 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I am fascinated by the fact that people who have jobs that allow them to sit all day in front of a computer spending their time posting their opinions on any silly issue they wish on an internet bulletin board are supporting the firing of people who punch a clock, do physical and manual labor, whose breaks are closely monitored to make sure they do not exceed the allowed time, for taking off one day on their own to express their opinion on an issue of vital importance to them, their families and their lives. I trust I am not the only one who sees how completely ironic this entire thread is. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Larry | Apr 15 2006, 09:48 AM Post #18 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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They weren't supposed to be here working in the first place. The crime is that the illegal ones weren't simply hauled across the border and dumped out in Mexico where they belong. They are taking jobs away from poor US citizens who need them - I can't believe you don't see that, Rick. Where's your concern for the American poor? |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| George K | Apr 15 2006, 09:57 AM Post #19 |
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Finally
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It's all about the job, Rick. Those of us that have breaks between responsibilities chose to spend those breaks here. Some of us don't work 9-5 and have a day in the middle of the week. Perhaps we choose to spend the time here. Once again, you paint with a wide brush, for a person who portrays himself as tolerant. I've seen you post in the middle of the weekday as well. Pot, meet kettle. As a matter of fact, I have held jobs that required me to punch a clock. Hot sweaty factories with 15 minutes in the morning, 30 at noon, and another 15 in the PM. Once again, you make accusations without facts, without knowing whom you're speaking to. What I do on MY time is MY business. I don't post when I have other responsibilities. For me to do so would be not only dangerous, but criminal. The point, which you obviously missed is that these people got fired for (sit down) NOT SHOWING UP FOR WORK. If I did that once (and I never have, in 30 years, other than 5 sick days), I'd be called on the carpet. If I did it twice, I'd be fired. Simple as that. It's in my contract. The employer has no responsibilty to let people off to "express their opinion." He has a responsibility to HIS employer, his business, his shareholders, whoever. That's his job, and he should expect his subordinates to do the same. What percentage of those "expressing their opinions" were US citizens? Just out of curiosity. See what the Mexican CONSTITUTION says about political activity by aliens, legal or not. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2006, 10:15 AM Post #20 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I think this is muddling the legal immigrants, and citizens, who attended the protests, with the illegals. But I do agree with kicking illegal immigrants back out. Citizenship has to mean something, and the benefits available in America should be limited to citizens and legal immigrants. Nevertheless, on the issue at hand, George has it exactly right. If you want to get paid, do your job. Take care of your right to political expression on your own time. Your employer should not be (and in fact is not) required to subsidize your right to express your views by giving you time off to do it. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Apr 15 2006, 10:27 AM Post #21 |
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Fulla-Carp
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George, The point of my post was not about those who protested, just about the irony of the posters here who support their being fired for expressing their opinion on an issue vital to them while they sit in front of their computers all day expressing their opinions on such important issues as which has-been pop star they have always liked. I have been chuckling at this irony since this thread started. There is, of course, a further irony in all of this. If these protestors are primarily undocumented immigrants, as many of you imply you think they are in your posts, why the hell are you supporting the companies who have hired them -- when hiring undocumented immigrants is against the law and has been since the mid-1980's? Should you not be even more incensed by these companies for creating the demand that has brought these people across the border? If these companies that are now firing them had not opened the door for them in the first place, perhaps the undocumented workers would not even be here? If these protestors are primarily undocumented workers, I would be more inclined to say these businesses have to accept what happened with no recourse because have reaped what they have sown -- loss of a production for a day because the business broke the law and hired an undocumented worker. Of course, if you want to argue the protestors were not undocumented workers, but American citizens and/or those here legally, then we can have a different discussion about the posters here who are condemning American citizens and people here legally for exercising their constitutional rights. All in all, this entire thread is quite the example of irony. And a rather amusing one, at that. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2006, 10:34 AM Post #22 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Once again ... American citizens can exercise their rights. Just not while they are being paid to do something else. If they prefer exercising their rights to working, they can hardly blame their employer for deciding they'd rather have someone else do the job. As for me, lawyers are generally paid by the hour, so my posting time is my time, thank you very much. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| George K | Apr 15 2006, 10:39 AM Post #23 |
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Finally
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Must be sad to be serious all the time. I brought this thread up because I find the irony of those who are here illegally losing their jobs to protest that in any other country they would be deported for. The protests are occuring on the dime of the employer, just as the students were bussed to protests on the dime of the taxpayers. That is, in my mind unacceptable. As I said in my original post, do it on your own time, on your own dime. Quirt said:
Exactly, and not bearing the costs of those who are not our citizens. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Apr 15 2006, 11:28 AM Post #24 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Given the nature of the jobs identified in the various articles on this, I would bet that these people were hourly employees who did not get paid if they did not work. Thus, they willingly accepted a loss in income. The employer (the ones who apparently illegally hired these supposedly undocumented workers) may have lost productivity but were probably not paying these people while they were protesting. However, if we are really going to enforce our laws, then these employers should all be investigated and if it is shown they did employ undocumented workers, they should be tried and then sentenced. It is their criminal activity that has created the massive problem we now have. I can only assume that all of those who want the undocumented workers to be punished for seeking a better life would agree that these employers should spend some time in jail and/or pay very high fines for the laws they have broken. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| George K | Apr 15 2006, 12:06 PM Post #25 |
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Finally
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So if a burglar breaks into my house, and shoots me with a gun that I left on the table, it's my fault. When I worked in those factories, INS paid surprise visits all the time. We had no illegals. However, you're right, this is a country of laws, and those who break them should be prosecuted, and if convicted, punished. That goes for illegal employer and illegal employee. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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10:54 AM Jul 11