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So now, they're gynecologists?
Topic Started: Apr 1 2006, 01:57 PM (1,428 Views)
kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
iainhp
Apr 3 2006, 07:52 AM
Why is it that male circumcision is acceptable in the name of religion?

I've wondered that as well. Or, even more mind-boggling, in the name of good medical practice?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Matt G.
Apr 3 2006, 10:47 AM
bachophile
Apr 3 2006, 01:18 PM
.... nontheless the practice is exclusivly a muslim practice ....

This exclusivity may come as a shock to the 75% to 100% of the females in Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Not to mention Kenya, Gambia, Guinea, et al.

A good read on the incidence of the practice which elaborates more on ethnicity and religious ties: FGM

I found this paragraph on Ethiopia particularly interesting:

FGM is practised among most of Ethiopia's 70 or more ethnic groups, including Christians, Muslims and the minority Ethiopian Jewish community (Beta Israel), formerly known as Falasha, a derogatory term, most of whom now live in Israel. Ethiopia has an extremely high maternal mortality rate, due in part to birth complications related to FGM. There is no law specifically prohibiting FGM although the Constitution prohibits harmful traditional practices. A wide range of educational outreach activities are carried out by NGOs. The Revolutionary Ethiopian Women's Association (REWA) had a mandate under the former Mengistu regime to eradicate customs and practices that deny women their rights. REWA supported eradication of FGM, as did the Ministry of Health. The National Committee of the IAC was set up in 1985 and given permission to establish its regional headquarters permanently in Addis Ababa. Similar anti-FGM educational programmes have been conducted since the overthrow of the Mengistu regime in 1991, with active governmental and NGO support. Ethiopia has a strong national anti-FGM NGO affiliated to the IAC.



Tsk, tsk, Bach - better get those books crackin.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
If I devote my efforts to prevent racism in the United States, but leave racism in, say, France, to be fought by other people, are my motives or dedication to ending racism therefore suspect?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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kathyk
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Of course not. But let's not take the racism of your hypothetical country and distort it as a problem exclusive to that country. Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.

The funny thing is, years ago, before 9-11 and the crisis of Islam, I circulated numerous e-mails, mainly stemming from feminists in academia seeking to have the practice of FGM abolished and then there was another tide of similar ones seeking to curb abuses against women around the world. I specifically remember several concerning the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the oppression of women there. Where was the outrage then? Why didn't a MEMRI come to being then? Perhaps, because it was only women being abused? I'm sorry if I can't take at face value MEMRI's new found concern with the practice - particuarly when it's treated as a problem exclusive to Islam - or maybe that was just Bach's misconception.
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Terry
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kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 11:39 AM
iainhp
Apr 3 2006, 07:52 AM
Why is it that male circumcision is acceptable in the name of religion?

I've wondered that as well. Or, even more mind-boggling, in the name of good medical practice?

From My Local Friendly Pediatric Urology Site:

Reasons Many Parents Choose Circumcision

Research studies suggest that there are some good medical why your son should be circumcised. These include:

Circumcision lowers your son’s chances of getting a urinary tract infection (UTI) in the first year of life.
Although a rare condition, cancer of the penis is essentially eliminated in circumcised males.
Research shows that males who are circumcised have a slightly lower risk of getting sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).
Circumcision eliminates foreskin infection that occur at the peak ages of 3 to 5 years.
Circumcision prevents phimosis, a narrow opening that makes it impossible to retract the foreskin at a later age.
Genital hygiene, which is particularly important in unsanitary conditions, may be easier after circumcision.

:sword:
Of course, if you don't agree, it's no skin off....never mind.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
So why doesn't the moyel get paid for doing the bris?

He only takes tips.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 12:39 PM
Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.

:whistle:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
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kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 12:39 PM
Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.


I can't believe you wrote that.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
or maybe that was just Bach's misconception.


my bad, thats what happens when i try to post quickly before running to a case...

nontheless, my main issue, which is what prompted me to reply in the first place is this conspiracy issue of memri, that they have a secret agenda to bring about western hegemony and instigating take over of the world by...whoever...

sorry, been there done that, its called the protocols of the elders of zion...


as for what u found particularly interesting kathyk, ..

if u need primary references...here u go...

Arch Sex Behav. 1997 Apr;26(2):211-5. Related Articles, Links


Ritual female genital surgery among Ethiopian Jews.

Grisaru N, Lezer S, Belmaker RH.

Ministry of Health Mental Center, Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Beersheva, Israel.

Ritual female genital surgery is usually associated with Muslim countries although it is normative also among Ethiopian Coptic Christians. Ethiopian Jewish women immigrants to Israel report that ritual female genital surgery was normative in their culture in Ethiopia, but expressed no desire to continue the custom in Israel. This contrasts with Israeli Bedouin Muslims, who were reported to regard ritual female genital surgery as an important part of their identity. Physical examination of 113 Ethiopian Jewish immigrant women in Israel found a variety of lesions in about a third of women, with 27% showing total or partial clitoral amputation. The heterogeneity of the physical findings contrasts with uniform verbal reports in interviews of having undergone a ritual of female genital surgery.

PMID: 9101034 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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kathyk
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Dwain
Apr 3 2006, 01:30 PM
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 12:39 PM
Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.

:whistle:

You think for a minute I'm trying to reform any of you, the unreformable!? :spit: My sole mission here is to annoy. :pirate:
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 07:02 PM
Dwain
Apr 3 2006, 01:30 PM
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 12:39 PM
Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.

:whistle:

You think for a minute I'm trying to reform any of you, the unreformable!? :spit: My sole mission here is to annoy. :pirate:

:lol2:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kathyk
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bachophile
Apr 3 2006, 02:04 PM
Quote:
 
or maybe that was just Bach's misconception.


my bad, thats what happens when i try to post quickly before running to a case...


Yup, it can happen to the best of us.

I've never purported to be an expert in anything except elder law. I certainly have my opinions and feel I'm fairly well read, but don't expect foot notes and citations for every statement I make. (although I *always* give a cite to anything I quote here). This is not my vocation.

You know, Bach, I think one of the reasons we don't hear more from women on sensitive topics (or from more men, for that matter), is this silly one-upmanship that pervades any discussion on controversial issues here. I don't even particularly like that term, debate, because it connotes winning or losing. The fact is, most of these arguments are not won or lost on this forum (excepts perhaps in our own minds).
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Terry
Apr 3 2006, 01:22 PM
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 11:39 AM
iainhp
Apr 3 2006, 07:52 AM
Why is it that male circumcision is acceptable in the name of religion?

I've wondered that as well. Or, even more mind-boggling, in the name of good medical practice?

From My Local Friendly Pediatric Urology Site:

Reasons Many Parents Choose Circumcision

Research studies suggest that there are some good medical why your son should be circumcised. These include:

Circumcision lowers your son’s chances of getting a urinary tract infection (UTI) in the first year of life.
Although a rare condition, cancer of the penis is essentially eliminated in circumcised males.
Research shows that males who are circumcised have a slightly lower risk of getting sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).
Circumcision eliminates foreskin infection that occur at the peak ages of 3 to 5 years.
Circumcision prevents phimosis, a narrow opening that makes it impossible to retract the foreskin at a later age.
Genital hygiene, which is particularly important in unsanitary conditions, may be easier after circumcision.

:sword:
Of course, if you don't agree, it's no skin off....never mind.

I think those reasons have been pretty much debunked - at least that was the case when my middle child (now 21) was facing the knife, at which point I read all of summaries of the most recent studies. I had my first son done, succumbing to pressure - mainly from my mother - on how unhygienic and unhealthy it would be not to do it. What completely turned my thinking around (which was, admitedly, already ambivalent) was when two-day old infant was returned to me an hour or so after the procedure, with beet red face, screaming in a shrill high pitch cry the likes of which I've never heard again. If this was his reaction an hour or so after the fact, imagine what it must have been like during and immediately following. That was the moment of light for me that this is a truly barbaric practice. Just because the infant can't say "ouch" doesn't mean it's not excruciating. And again, unless there's no info out there, I don't think there is any medical justification of significance.

BTW, Terry, you're a funny guy. :nerd: I would say welcome except for the fact that I'm not particularly welcome here myself if you haven't garnered that already.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Terry
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kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 03:16 PM
I would say welcome except for the fact that I'm not particularly welcome here myself if you haven't garnered that already.

Thanks! :wave:
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
u r always welcome.

otherwise ill hunt u down at WTF anyway...

(thats a joke by the way...)
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
AlbertaCrude
Apr 3 2006, 01:32 PM
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 12:39 PM
Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.


I can't believe you wrote that.

I can.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
To the question of the difference between circumscision and clitorectomy is there not a difference between removing the foreskin from the penis and the entire clitoris? The latter would seem comparable to a penectomy to me (like the alliteration?) but I am no MD.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 03:02 PM
Dwain
Apr 3 2006, 01:30 PM
kathyk
Apr 3 2006, 12:39 PM
Hyperbole is a poor tool with which to achieve reform, IMO.

:whistle:

You think for a minute I'm trying to reform any of you, the unreformable!? :spit: My sole mission here is to annoy. :pirate:

Is that sort of the same kind of admission as the one you made back a year or two ago when you blew everyone off as unimportant to you - why yes, I believe it is....

Hey boney - do ya reckon Jim Crw had his tip cut off?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kathyk
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bachophile
Apr 3 2006, 05:47 PM
u r always welcome.

otherwise ill hunt u down at WTF anyway...

(thats a joke by the way...)

My paintball gun is loaded and ready. Got a color preference?

Posted Image
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
JBryan
Apr 3 2006, 06:48 PM
To the question of the difference between circumscision and clitorectomy is there not a difference between removing the foreskin from the penis and the entire clitoris? The latter would seem comparable to a penectomy to me (like the alliteration?) but I am no MD.

In one case you are increasing tactile sensation, while in the other you are decreasing it.

That's pretty significant....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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iainhp
Middle Aged Carp


Why is that significant - it's an unnecessary procedure done in the name of religion? Yes, I realise plenty don't do it in the name of religion, I'm only arguing that you can't be one sided and debate that procedures done on females in the name of religion are barbaric, and not carry the same argument over for males.
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