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So now, they're gynecologists?
Topic Started: Apr 1 2006, 01:57 PM (1,430 Views)
kathyk
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bachophile
Apr 1 2006, 10:41 PM
you r right, the reform project does seem abit optimistic, no? definatly too bent.

or maybe u didnt know about that section of memri?

Nope, hadn't heard of the reform project; you're at complete liberty to expound.

My first reaction is, how quaint - a Jewish group attempting to reform Islam - sort of like if the Christian right in this country took on a campaign to reform homosexuals (hmm - they've done that already, haven't they?).
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
"How quaint - a bunch of priveliged white college kids, coming down here to try to reform us southerners..."

-Sheriff Bull Connor, 1963 (paraphrased)
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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bachophile
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kathyk.

u posted here (and in other threads) that memri is a jewish propaganda organization that skews reality...

eg..from WTF..
Quote:
 
(What bothers me about MEMRI is not in what they report, but rather that they do it surreptitiously, very deliberately masking their agenda. Their very name and logo, MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute)with splashes of Arabic script in the logo gives the impression that it is an Arabic organizaiton providing English translation of Arabic news; when in fact, it is a Jewish organization that cherry picks the Arabic media to present the picture that they want the world to see. In my mind that makes them first and foremost a propaganda machine. )


so i asked u if u knew of the memri reform project. i even posted the link. u obviously didnt bother going. ill post it again...

Memri reform project

if u go to memri, they divide their content into subjects to make searching easier.

one sub heading is the reform project which is accumalated material trying to show the other side, the people within the arab world who risk their life to show another side of muslims. that female LA shrink, Dr Wafa Sultan, that made big news a few weeks ago is an example.

this is something which u find "quaint"?

i have said this before and ill repeat it, although last time u took this as a personal insult. and u reponded in kind. i cant take seriously views (ie...memri is a skewed propoganda device whose agenda is painting a false view of arab society) that are not based on real information but rather on conjecture and rhetoric.

there,i expounded on it, i hope it was a sufficient expoundation.

yours truly, herr doktor. (as u so affectionatly called me once...)
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Moonbat
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Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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kathyk
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I did not have time to check your link. I was off to play organ at my local [sarcasm] anti-semitic Lutheran church and pray for the destruction of Israel in the name of Martin Luther who is right up there with Margaret Sanger Smith and Dr Evil in terms of wickedness. [/sarcasm]

I have looked at it a bit since returning, and the part I find quaint is the use of the word "reform" in their title which would suggest that their aim is to reform the Muslim world. No question in my mind, whatsoever, that the Muslim world is in dire need of reform - but for a group of Jews to feel that the job is suited to them strikes me as - well, quaint.

Interesting quote - the white southerers one - and quite apropos. But, are these MEMRI folk in the trenches - mingling with Palestinians and every day Mulsims in attempt to spread their love and pull downtrodden Mulsims out of the trenches. My sense is that they are not, but please correct me if I am wrong. My sense is that they are simply doing what MEMRI does best - cherry picking news stories - except in this case, ones of Muslims swearing off of Islam and declaring it a dead religion. Yes, one can always find people who have become disenfranchised from their religion, but I somehow don't see how their stories are going to help convert droves of other Muslims to do the same. Or might the purpose, rather, be to educate us westerners and underscore the monstrousity of all things Islamic? I don't know. You tell me. But, let's face it - Islam is here to stay - at least for a few centuries, I'd ponder.

And Dwain, I don't dismiss a story because it appeared on MEMRI. They put out a lot of very, very interesting stuff. I do treat it, however, with a grain of salt, just as you would if I presented something here I found on Truthout. Their aim (among others, no doubt) seems to be to find the most outrageous stories and get them into the highest circulation, possislbe. How many times has Amanda shared the same story of that awful Palestinian mother, qua politician, barking about how she'd love to sacrifice every one of her sons in a Jihad mission? How can you not be outraged when you see that? But, does it really represent the norm in Palestine? Not from what I hear from people in Palestine, including my Lutheran contacts and the LA Times correspondent, friend living in Jerusalem who I've mentioned here several times and with whom I speak fairly regularly.


Bach, (and it was Herr Doctor, BTW - don't you remember my mistake?), if you lump me in with those you accuse of wishing the destruction of Israel, (I did read your last rant at WTF), you couldn't be more wrong. I have a huge amount of respect for your Isaeli brother and sisters who continue to fight for peace and continue to engage with their Palestinian brothers and sisters (to the extent that it is even possible anymore) as in the article I posted over at WTF about a group in my town, if you saw it, and also the Seeds of Peace Camp here in Maine that brings Palestininans and Israelis together. Yes, those are just a couple of little groups far away from the heart of the problem, but IMO, if a criticial mass of those types of groups could be reached, *and* if the US would take a responsible role in brokering peace there, we might see some real positive change.

I have a fantasy, BTW of visiting Israel, Palestine, the Holy Land and working with peace groups. Jon's pictures really pricked my interest - yet again. I had the opportunity to go with my church a couple years ago and didn't because I didn't want to leave my youngest for so long. I have a great deal of respect for our Lutheran Bishop of the Holy Land, Dr. Munib Younand, and the pastor of our sister church in Bethlehem, Mitri Raheb. They are both great men, striving and working tirelessly for peaceful solutions. I know that there are many more great men in women in Israel doing the same. It's with these people that your best hope lies - not groups striving to further incite and polarize.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I have a fantasy, BTW of visiting Israel, Palestine, the Holy Land and working with peace groups.


I have a fantasy of seeing you in a burkha, living the life of a woman under Islamic law in an Arab country.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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bachophile
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Quote:
 
if you lump me in with those you accuse of wishing the destruction of Israel


heaven forbid. i have never said such a thing nor honestly have i thought such a thing.

i think u earnestly want peaceand u earnestly believe in what u write.

that is noble and surely worthy of respect as an ideal. i like your ideals.

however, if i may be so bold, i find your posts suffer from 2 consistent things i find problematic.

u sometimes have responded on issues without doing the proper homework...(a case in point for me, when i debate others here on theological questions, i find myself reading tons of sources, before i open my big mouth and write something which may come out ignorant, and i feel much enriched always even when disagreeing strongly with views expresed.)

2, often the homework that u do, is based on ideas of circles..who unfortunatly really would not mind the destruction of that "sh**ty little country" (in the words of the french ambassador to london last year.)

i have always shied away from personal invective on this site, one, because im simply a nice guy, and 2, because it doesnt do the general welfare of the the forum and level of discussion any good, and i hope u dont take what ive written as a personal insult because it is not meant in that manner. have whatever beliefs u want and feel free to express yourself on any issue including the jewish israel one...i dont take offence at anyone here. but when u do express opinion, make sure its well backed up with facts and be prepared to defend those facts in this theater of ideas, without giving reflexive responses and then backing out by saying i wont post on this anymore...(how many promises have u made on this????)

as to your question does the famous bomber mother reflect palestinian society in genreal? on one hand, i think her personal viewpoint is probably rare in its expression, yet this woman is an idealized martyr, as all extreemist martyrs r, in a society which reveres this behaviour. and for example...fact-this woman is a hamas representative, newly elected to the parliament. so i guess a democratic majority do identify with her ideas...

and as i have been honest with u, please be honest with me and explain the etiology of "herr doctor".

and i offer this for interesting reading...

The guardian -editorial
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Dewey
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"I don't dismiss a story because it appeared on MEMRI. They put out a lot of very, very interesting stuff. I do treat it, however, with a grain of salt, just as you would if I presented something here I found on Truthout. Their aim (among others, no doubt) seems to be to find the most outrageous stories and get them into the highest circulation, possislbe. How many times has Amanda shared the same story of that awful Palestinian mother, qua politician, barking about how she'd love to sacrifice every one of her sons in a Jihad mission? How can you not be outraged when you see that? But, does it really represent the norm in Palestine? Not from what I hear...."

Please go back and read my earlier post. I don't automatically dismiss a news story that originates from an onstensibly respectable source, regardless of whether I happen to see the article on Drudge or truthout, simply because of where I happened to see it. I may beieve it, or not believe it, based on its origin, not the location from whence I found the story.

Put another way, I don't discredit the contents of a letter I receive, simply because I might not like my mailman.

The same is in play here. You're a lawyer; what's the Latin term that attorneys use which translates to "the thing speaks for itself"? These videos, likewise, speak for themselves. And the issue of whether the attitudes expressed in them are the "norm" or not is, as I said earlier, irrelevant. It is indisputable that these attitudes are at least widely enough held to pose a serious concern, and threat, to those with whom they disagree.

Personally, I don't know if they represent a majority view or not. The mere fact that I can't say whether they do or not is evidence to the control that the people with these attitudes have in driving Arab media - which, in and of itself, is quite telling. I know that whether it is a majority, minority, or otherwise, there is a substantial percentage of the Muslim world that does not espouse the truly hateful and bigoted attitudes shown in so many of the MEMRI clips. But that doesn't negate the similarly substantial percentage - majority or minority, norm or not - that do, in fact, hold these attitudes, and must be dealt with. It's not realistic to dismiss the potential threat of an enemy on the basis of what percentage of its population it represents. It won't be much consolation to me, should a major Islamist terrorist attack hit another American (or Israeli, or any other target perceived as "anti-Muslim") target, to know whether the percentage of Muslims who support the attack totalled 53%, or 27%.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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kathyk
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Dwain
Apr 2 2006, 05:18 AM
To look at the video, and read the transcripts from the Arab media posted at MEMRI, and to dismiss them by discounting MEMRI itself is a mistake. It's exactly the same as if Drudge provided a link to an article from the New York Times that a person disagreed with, and the person's response was, "Well, Drudge doesn't know what he's talking about" - blaming Drudge for the content of the Times article itself.


That is not at all what I meant. What I meant is that I react differently to anything I see if I know it's from MEMRI because I know what MEMRI cherry picks its pieces to outrage. Can you deny that you do the same when you see that an article comes from NY Times? How many times have we heard on this forum that we can't believe anything from the times because of its bias. MEMRI has an agenda. They have tried to hide it (or did inititally) which immediately makes me distrust them. It's important to understand the agenda before placing a great deal of weight on the content. You should see the latest von Trier film, "Manderlay" or for that matter, his earlier one, "Dogville." Both end with photo after photo of the desolation of the south, and the Jim Crow era. Seeing them, you would think the United States is the most bigoted, backward, disgusting place on earth. Yet, they are all real, true-to-life photos. If you take photo and videos of the most outrageous happenings in any society, they can be painted to be utterly evil.


It may be valid to argue that some of the rhetoric seen in the MEMRI videos do not represent the majority opinion of the Arab world - but then again, maybe the argument is not that valid. I suppose a person could debate that back and forth, in the absence of opinion polling, but without any real source of authority.

But whether these views do, or don't, reflect majority Arab opinion actually isn't relevant. What is relevant, is that these views hold sway with a substantial segment of the Arab world - a large enough segment to pose a threat to those whom they oppose, whether the US, Israel, women, Jews, Christians, or even other factions within their same religion. There can't be any argument that these views are so rare that they do not pose a threat to anyone, and that they should therefore be ignored. The mere fact that so many of these videos are taken from state-run, state-moderated, state-sanctioned, "official" media outlets from the various countries should be of great concern by itself - especially since these countries are run by the whim and opinions of its rulers, and concepts of public "majority" are, at best, secondary academic abstractions.

I think it is very relevant that the snips don't reflect the majority of Islamic thought, because I believe that this is what they are intended to do, and the intent is to polarize an inflame. -to fill us Westerners (read USAians with the big ) with the will to use all that weaponry to annilhate those ful, less-than-humans. How much easier it is to and kill when we believe that we're monsters. It's propaganda - plain and simple, and a tactic as old as war itself - paint the enemy as a less than human devil and you can kill him with clear conscience.

Again, I am not dismissing or minimizing the cancerous disease of hatred permeating of the Muslim world. There's no question in my mind that huge problems are brewing there. What I oppose, however, is an attempt from us westerners (who are supposed to be so much more enlightened) to polarize and ultimately justify anhilation.


The majority of Southerners were not -filled, lynching, members - but those that were had to be dealt with, not ignored because they didn't represent a majority of southerners.

The majority of black social activists were not Black Panthers - but those that were had to be dealt with, not ignored because they didn't represent a majority of blacks.

Or a more positive example (assuming you're sitting on the west side of the pond, anyway): Imagine King George III's advisors - "Well, your Highness, there seems to be significant discontent in the American Colonies and some talk of independence. But not to worry; our most recent polling data indicate that only about a third of the colonial population actually want independence."

It doesn't take a majority to constitute a great threat, or a great good. Ignoring the power of either can be dangerous.

And this is where you and I will probably never agree. My response would be to understand the source of the discontent and use diplomacy and our economic might (in the way of sanctions and oil buying power) to try to establish a working solution. The Islamic world has a lot of reason to be mightily ticked off at the western world. Their hatred of the west was not born in a vacuum. To dismiss it as sheer craziness, the result of a wacky religion, or something inexplicable is naive and dangerous. You have to understand the source of the problem before you can solve the problem. Wide scale spreading videos of the most outrageous of the outrageous in the Muslim world does just the opposite - inflames and incites.

Okay, Dwain. I've gone back to fully read your post and respond again and have responded in bold to your comments.
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Larry
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Quote:
 
Wide scale spreading videos of the most outrageous of the outrageous in the Muslim world does just the opposite - inflames and incites.


Are you for real?......

So your answer would be to hide from them what's being done in the name of their religion?

Nah... even you can't be that misguided.

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Dewey
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Kathy, I said that it doesn't take a majority to constitute a significant threat. You disagreed with this, and then started talking about understanding the Muslims and attempting diplomatic means to halp solve the problem. Whether you agree or disagree with my comment, neither of issues actually speaks to it. Neither, for that matter, have I ever argued against understanding or dimplomacy. But just as I don't believe it takes a majority to constitute a threat, neither do I foolishly believe that understanding and diplomacy will solve every dispute; whether political, cultural, religious, or otherwise relating to human rights in general.

Again using a historical example: a minority of residents of the South, much less the entire United States, were slaveholders. Using the "majority argument," no one should have made a big deal out of slavery, or worked - or fought, or died - to end it. The same applies to the continuum of civil rights for blacks, or any other minority group in our history. To argue that the ills found in a particular society should be minimized or excused based on the minority status of its occurrence is really a highly tenuous piece of intellectual territory to stake out.

You don't like MEMRI because you think they try to say that these people reflect a majority of Arab/Muslim thought. You and I may - in fact, I'm sure that we do - disagree on what percentage of the Muslim world actually holds these beliefs. But as I said before, whether they are a majority opinion - or whether MEMRI tries to misrepresent them as a majority if they aren't - isn't really relevant to the problem that these people represent. To set MEMRI up as a straw man to battle against does nothing to address the underlying problem. As I said earlier, "the thing speaks for itself" - with or without MEMRI.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
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Paging Ms K....your truck is waiting.
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George K
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Dwain, Dwain, Dwain.

:tsktsk:

There are those who will say that it is unfair to label a religion based on the actions of a few of its adherents. Do you REALLY think that this man speaks for all of Islam?

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If a Christian commits a violent act in the name of Christinaity, would you indict all of Christianity?


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Dewey
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Well, you know, no one's a real threat until they're in the majority - unless you happen to be one of the ones under his tires, anyway...
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
warning; long post.

i took the liberty of pasting most of the the wikipedia entry on memri.

covers most of the issues discussed above.

if u r really interested then please go ahead and read it at lenght.

u will also see where k gets her inspiration.

Controversy
High-profile critics of MEMRI include the academics Dr. Juan Cole and Dr.Marc Lynch who have criticized MEMRI on their non-academic blogs, Mr. Brian Whitaker a former graduate student in Middle Eastern studies and the Middle East Editor of the British Newspaper, the Guardian, who has criticized MEMRI in the newspaper he edits, and Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London (UK). Discussion of salient points in the controversy is detailed below.


Selectivity of focus
Dr. Cole has accused the institute of "cleverly cherry-pick[ing] the vast Arabic press, which serves 300 million people, for the most extreme and objectionable articles and editorials,... selecting the Arabic equivalent of ...the likes of Christian fundamentalist Jerry Falwell or outspoken conservative columnist Ann Coulter." He offers the following as support: "On more than one occasion I have seen, say, a bigotted Arabic article translated by MEMRI and when I went to the source on the Web, found that it was on the same op-ed page with other, moderate articles arguing for tolerance. These latter were not translated"[3] . Professor Marc Lynch, on his blog "Abu Aardvark", expressed agreement with Cole, "MEMRI routinely selects articles which show the worst of Arab discourse, even where this represents only a minority of actually expressed opinion, while almost never acknowledging the actual distribution of opinion". He added, "it is the near-unanimous consensus of all Arabic-speaking experts on the Middle East that your [MEMRI's] service does exactly what Professor Cole alleges. [4] (note: Dr. Lynch did not provide sources substantiating this consensus he mentioned on his blog). Brian Whitaker quotes Dr. William Rugh, former US ambassador to the UAE and Yemen, describing MEMRI as a service which, "does not present a balanced or complete picture of the Arab print media. Its owners are pro-Israeli and anti-Arab. Quotes are selected to portray Arabs as preaching hatred against Jews and westerners, praising violence and refusing any peaceful settlement of the Palestinian issue." [5]

In response to concerns of selectivity as posed in an email debate between Yigal Carmon, president of MEMRI, and Mr. Brian Whitaker published in the Guardian, Carmon replies:

"We aim to reflect main trends of thought and when possible general public opinion. We feature the most topical issues on the Middle Eastern or international agenda. As you might expect, we are now publishing articles from the Iraqi media. We also translate discussions on social issues, such as the status of women in Egypt (Special Dispatches 392, 393, January 2002) and debates on Al-Jazeera TV which reach an estimated 60 million viewers. When controversial matters are aired before such a large audience, Memri does not need to fight shy of translating their contents.

Are the examples chosen extreme? While some of the topics covered do seem extreme to the western reader, they are an accurate representation of what appears in the Arab and Farsi [Persian] media.

If mainstream papers repeatedly publish the Jewish blood libel; accuse Jews and Americans of deliberately spreading Aids or the US of dropping genetically modified foods with the intention of harming people in Afghanistan (the latter allegation made by no less than the editor in chief of the most important government daily in Egypt) Memri is entitled to translate these articles.

There are even more extreme views - like those expressed by most Islamist organisations - which we rarely translate.[6]"

In a written response to Cole, Carmon point's to MEMRI's Reform Project, identifying it as, "one of the most important of MEMRI's projects, and which receives much of our energy and resources. The Reform Project (www.memri.org/reform.html) is devoted solely to finding and amplifying the progressive voices in the Arab world." Dr. Juan Cole criticized the reform project saying, "MEMRI...highlights pieces that cast Arabs, especially committed Muslims, in a negative light. That it also rewards secular Arabs for being secularists is entirely beside the point (and this is the function of the "reform" site)[7]". In another point of criticism of the Reform Project, Mohammed El Oifi wrote in Le Monde Diplomatique that MEMRI

"...[takes] hostage Arab liberals by creating the strange category of 'liberal or progressive Arab journalist'. In order to belong to this category, one must pronounce himself against any armed resistance in the Arab world, in particular in Palestine and Iraq; denounce Hamas and Hezbollah; criticize Yasser Arafat; plead for 'realism', that is accept the power structure of foreign domination; be favourable to US projects in the Middle-East; incite Arabs to make self-criticism and renounce the 'conspiracy mentality'. He must also demonstrate a strong hostility to nationalism and political Islam, or even despise the Arab culture. His criticisms must target in particular religious people, and, more generally, societies which would lag behind enlightened Arab leaders. He must praise individual liberties, without insisting however on political liberties and even less on national sovereignty." [8]

The "Reform Project" has also been praised. Thomas L. Friedman in the New York Times credits MEMRI with helping to,"shine a spotlight on hate speech wherever it appears" and "presenting the voices of the..courageous Arab or Muslim intellectual, cleric or columnist (who) publishes an essay in his or her media calling on fellow Muslims to deal with the cancer in their midst. The truth tellers' words also need to be disseminated globally. Friedman quotes Husain Haqqani, author of the book 'Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military':

" 'The rulers in these countries have no interest in amplifying the voices of moderates because the moderates often disagree with the rulers as much as they disagree with the extremists...You have to deal us moderates into the game by helping to amplify our voices and exposing the extremists and their amen corner.' " [9]

MEMRI includes this support for the reform project from Richard Holbrooke, Former Assistant Secretary of State, on their Web site[10] . "Through its Reform Project, MEMRI includes the newly-emerging liberal voices of reform and hope, as well as disturbing echoes of ancient hatreds. Without the valuable research of MEMRI, the non-Arabic speaking world would not have this indispensable window. MEMRI’s Reform Project monitors advocates of reform and liberalism in the Arab and Islamic world, the issues they contend with, as well as the obstacles they face."

Brian Whitaker has made the more general criticism that, "The stories selected by Memri...reflect badly on the character of Arabs." In his

2002 Guardian article entitled, "Selective MEMRI"[11] Whitaker presents several examples of this, quoted below Yigal Carmon's responses published in a follow-up Guardian piece [12]. In MEMRI's translation of an article from Saudi Arabia describing how, "Jews use the blood of Christian or Muslim children in pastries for the Purim religious festival", Whitaker objected to MEMRI's claim that "al-Riyadh was a Saudi "government newspaper" because this "impl[ied] that the article had some form of official approval" and stated that al-Riyadh was a privately owned company. Carmon responded that the Saudi [Arabian] paper al-Riyadh daily is, "identified as government-controlled by the Saudi government's website, by the BBC and by news agencies such as Associated Press." Whitaker did not object to MEMRI's choice to translate the article, which he notes, "demonstrated, more than anything, was the ignorance of many Arabs - even those highly educated - about Judaism and Israel, and their readiness to believe such ridiculous stories". Carmon noted that although "Whitaker implies that this was a marginal case...the major Egyptian government daily Al-Ahram follows a similar line... The government-appointed editor-in-chief is currently facing prosecution in France (and possible prosecution in the UK) for incitement to anti-semitism and racial violence. Concerning MEMRI's characterizaation of a poem about a young woman suicide bomber by Saudi Arabia's ambassador to London Al-Qusaybi entitled "The Martyrs" as "praising suicide bombers". Whitaker argues that the poem actually should read as, "condemning the political ineffectiveness of Arab leaders". Carmon responded that the author, "has authored several articles expressing the same political position" (Memri Dispatches 251, 256, 389 at www.memri.org).

On the core issue of selectivity, in email debate between Whitaker and Carmon also published in the Guardian[13] , Carmon notes the following: "Memri has never claimed to "represent the view of the Arabic media", but rather to reflect, through our translations, general trends which are widespread and topical. You accused us of distortion by omission but when asked to provide examples of trends and views we have missed, you have failed to answer."


Accuracy
Minor criticisms of the accuracy of MEMRI's translations have sometimes been raised; for example, Brian Whitaker, in an email debate with Yigal Carmon, accuses the institute of making "annoying, dishonest little tweaks" in its translations and presentations thereof. More recently, a brief controversy arose when Dr. Juan Cole disputed MEMRI's translation[14] of the 2004 Osama bin Laden video released days before the 2004 U.S. Presidential Election. The video shows Osama saying: "...your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaeda. No. Your security is in your own hands. And every state [wilayah] that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security." MEMRI used the modern standard Arabic definition of "wilayah" as "province or administrative district" to translate "wilayah" as "U.S. state" and suggested that bin Laden was attempting to speak to voters in individual states to influence their choice of candidate. However, Cole claimed that "while [MEMRI] are right to draw attention to the oddness of the diction, their conclusion is impossible". Cole speculated that bin Laden was not using the standard Arabic sense of "wilayah", as in the Arabic name of the United States of America, (الولايات الأمريكية المتح) but rather, either an archaic or a fundamentalists' sense of the word meaning "government", or that he might have lapsed into a local idiom in which "wilayah" might mean "city".[15] Yigal Carmon's article defending the standard translation of the word can be found in this article in the National Review Online. [16] The MEMRI translation contains a note: "The Islamist website Al-Qal'a explained what this sentence meant: "This message was a warning to every U.S. state separately."[17] Al-Jazeera translated the expression in question as "every state".[18]

In a post on his personal blog[19], Professor Halim Barakat of Georgetown University objected to MEMRI's translation of excerpts from a piece entitled The Wild Beast that Zionism Created: Self-Destruction he had written for the Arabic language Al-Hayat newspaper. Responding to the uproar the translation of his polemic produced, he wrote that the translation takes excerpts out of context and, "[translates them] in such a way as to intentionally misrepresent my views, such as replacing the phrase the "Zionist Leadership" with "[Israeli Jews]." . In the translation, the phrase "Israeli Jews" occurs only once in the form Barakat states was mistranslated: "The Israeli Jews are no longer strong in and of themselves; [they are strong] with the strength of their airplanes, missiles, tanks, armored vehicles, helicopters, and tractors that uproot trees and destroy homes...[The Israeli Jews] have turned into an instrument; their humanity has shriveled." [20]. Dr. Barakat stated that the MEMRI translation had, "...the effect of erasing a distinction between Judaism as a religion and Zionism as a political movement, hence the impossibility of criticizing Israel without being exposed to the risk of being branded as an anti-Semite." Barakat however, did not provide evidence of specific mistranslated words, or provide a complete translation of the disputed article in English.

Mohammed El Oifi quotes London mayor Ken Livingstone in an article in Le Monde diplomatique criticizing a MEMRI report on the Islamic Cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi which he concludes, "systematically distorts not only al-Qaradawi's statements, but what many other Muslim scholars say. In most of the cases, disinformation is total." In the same article, El Oifi underlined other mistakes, such as describing Abdel Karim Abou Al-Nasr as being a Saudi national because he writes for a Saudi newspaper, even though he is a renowned Lebanese journalist. Other errors included a MEMRI analysis of Saudi Arabia that incorrectly identified Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud, as a member of the Sudairi branch of the Saudi royal family, which would "...surprise anybody familiar with the country" [21]

Regarding attacks on MEMRI's accuracy, Yigal Carmon stated: "As one who has been invited to give testimony before the US Congress on a number of occasions, I have no need to "impress" them, and certainly no cause to change or embellish evidence."[22]


Staff backgrounds
Brian Whitaker, in a Guardian article critical of MEMRI, has noted that three of the original six founders of MEMRI were former members of the Israeli secret services[23]. Yigal Carmon stated in response that "...staff include people of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths and they hold a range of political views".[24] At the time of MEMRI's founding, some of its higher-ranking staff included:

Col. (Res.) Yigal Carmon is MEMRI's President. He served in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) /Intelligence Branch from 1968 to 1988. From 1977 to 1982 he was the Acting Head of Civil Administration in Judea and Samaria and the Advisor on Arab Affairs to the Civil Administration. Following Col. Carmon's retirement from the IDF he was Advisor to Premiers Shamir and Rabin for Countering Terrorism from 1988 to 1993. In 1991 and 1992 he was a senior member of the Israeli Delegation to peace negotiations with Syria in Madrid and Washington.
Dr. Meyrav Wurmser was MEMRI's Executive Director until 2002. She received her Ph.D. from George Washington University in Washington, D.C, on Jabotinsky and the Revisionist Movement. She has taught at Johns Hopkins University and the United States Naval Academy. She has written numerous articles about Israel, the Arab World, and Zionism. Her most recent article on the status of women in the Palestinian Authority was published in Middle East Insight. She is also a "Contributing Expert" for the Ariel Center for Policy Research, or ACPR, a non-profit, non-partisan organization, committed to stimulating and informing the national and international debate concerning all aspects of security policy - especially those stemming from the Oslo Peace Process."[25]. Dr. Wurmser joined the Hudson Institute in 2002.
Aaron Mannes was MEMRI's Director of Research until 2001. He earned an MA in Liberal Arts from St. John's College and a BS in Speech from Emerson College. He has been a stand-up comedian, an Equal Employment Opportunity Investigator, and an Associate Writer for The Hotline.
Yotam Feldner is MEMRI's Director of Media Analysis. He was born in Kibbutz Gazit, Israel, served in the IDF in Military Intelligence, and is fluent in Arabic. He earned a BA in History and English Language and Literature from Hebrew University.
Aluma Solnick is a Research Associate with MEMRI. She was born in Jerusalem and served in the IDF in Military Intelligence. She earned a BA in Arabic Language and the History of the Middle East from Hebrew University, and is pursuing an MA in Arab Language and Literature there.
Dr. Nimrod Raphaeli received a Ph.D. in development planning from the University of Michigan. He spent most of his professional career at the World Bank, and has consulted for the International Monetary Fund. Dr. Raphaeli joined the Middle Media Research Institute (MEMRI)as a senior analyst in 2001."[26]
Prof. Menahem Milson (Academic Advisor), is a professor at Hebrew University in Arabic literature, and has served as head of the Department of Arabic Language and Literature and Dean of the Faculty of Humanities. He has published extensively on modern Egyptian writers. His book on Egypt's great humanist, Najib Mahfuz - Najib Mahfuz: The Novelist-Philosopher of Cairo - appeared in 1998."
[edit]
Political Affiliations
MEMRI describes itself as nonpartisan and independent. However, Juan Cole has accused MEMRI of being part of a conspiracy to serve Israeli interests:

"MEMRI was founded by a retired Israeli colonel from military intelligence, and co-run by Meyrav Wurmser, wife of David Wurmser. David Wurmser is close to the Likud Party in Israel and served in Douglas Feith's Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon, where he helped manufacture the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was linked to al-Qaeda. David Wurmser, who wants to get up American wars against both Iran and Syria, then moved over to Vice President Dick Cheney's rump national security team. MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone."[27]Cole also wrote that MEMRI is "a sophisticated anti-Arab propaganda machine...and...one of a number of public relations campaigns essentially on behalf of the far right-wing Likud Party in Israel."

Wurmser may not have respond to Cole's comments, since she had left MEMRI more than four years earlier at the time of Cole's writing. In a letter to Cole, Carmon objected to the above statements of Cole's, saying that they went,

"beyond what could be considered legitimate criticism, and which in fact qualify as slander and libel....While we respect your right to argue the veracity of our translations, you certainly may not fabricate information about our organization....MEMRI is totally unaffiliated with any government, and receives no government funding. While I was formerly an Israeli official (and retired more than a decade ago), I have never been affiliated with the Likud Party, or any other party."

Carmon responded to similar suggestions by Brian Whitaker as follows, "You continually refer to my supposed "political background" as if I had something to hide, and I wonder if I am your real target here. As a civil servant and adviser on counter-terrorism to both Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin, prime ministers from opposing camps, my role was not a political appointment." Ken Livingstone has also criticized MEMRI on the basis of Carmon's previous Israeli military career.

MEMRI posts praise from US Government Congressmen and other officials affiliated with both the Republican and Democratic parties on its Web site[28]


Source of Funding
After noting the Israeli Military background on the President of MEMRI and the ties of a former executive to the Bush-Cheney US Whitehouse, Dr. Juan Cole wrote on his blog that, "MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone."[29] In a letter[30] to Cole replying to this statement, Carmon objected to Cole's statement which he feels is an attempt to, "paint MEMRI in a conspiratorial manner by portraying us as a rich, sinister group, [writing] that "MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year." This is completely false" In a reply, Dr. Cole suggested that Carmon's protest might have been motivated by fear that Cole's comments could endanger MEMRI's tax exempt status: "[The] issue [that] almost certainly generated the entire letter [is that] MEMRI is a 501 © 3 organization, which is tax exempt in US law, and therefore cannot engage in (much) directly political activity without endangering its exemption. I don't think MEMRI does so directly intervene in politics as to make its 501 © 3 status questionable. But it is obvious that 501 © 3 is widely abused by rightwing think tanks." [31] Mr. Brian Whittaker has also pointed to the organizaiton's tax-exempt status, writing that MEMRI's, "work is subsidised by US taxpayers because ...it has tax-deductible status under American law." [32]

MEMRI says that it is funded exclusively by private money from some 250 donors, including various foundations. Notable among these is the Lynde & Harry Bradley Foundation, which has donated at least $100,000 dollars[33]. The Harold Grinspoon Foundation notes in its 2005 annual report that it provides funding to MEMRI to support Israel advocacy. [34] And the Koret Foundation, in its spring 2005 quarterly report, notes that it gave $20,000 to MEMRI to support Israel advocacy and education. [35] Smaller funders include the Ronald & Mary Ann Lachman Foundation, which has donated a total of $7,500.[36]

According to GuideStar, a national database of nonprofit organizations, the US branch's total yearly revenue in gifts, grants, and contributions has increased from $506,948 in 1999, to $1,746,393 in 2002, including a jump of almost a million dollars in the fiscal year (July 1 2001 to June 30 2002) of the 9/11 attacks on the United States.
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Rick Zimmer
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George K
Apr 1 2006, 01:57 PM
From MEMRI TV here’s a mind-altering show from Kuwait’s Al-Rai TV, featuring an Egyptian Islamic expert discussing the finer points of female genital mutilation.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_...1090wmv&ak=null

    Interviewer: So what about the girl’s opinion?

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: What do you mean?

    Interviewer: What if she says: I don’t want to be circumcised. What happens then?

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: If a girl says she doesn’t want it, she’s free. No problem.

    Interviewer: Is this what happens in reality?

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: I have no relation to reality. I am talking about how things should be.

    Interviewer: You are a religious sheik, from Al-Azahar University. You cannot say you have no relation to reality.

    Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: Reality is a mistake, we must rectify it.

    [...]

    In Egypt we have four and a half million spinsters. The definition of a spinster is a woman who has reached 30, without ever receiving a marriage proposal. We have a spinster problem in the Arab world, and the last thing we want is for them to be sexually aroused. Circumcision of the girls who need it makes them chaste, dignified, and pure.

This is an horrendous and barbaric practice.

It is also a widespread practice in Central Africa where the predominant religion is Christianity. Should we blame this on Christianity? Maybe it is time to nuke them and exterminate them like rats.

Did anyone happen to listen to the reports this past week on NPR about the massive incidence of aborting female babies in India. Some schools have as high as 70% males and only 30% females because the practice is so widespread -- even among the wealthy and educated. Can we blame this on Hinduism? Maybe it is time to nuke them and exterminate them like rats.

As anyone who follows these things knows, it is well reported, although statistics are understandably hard to come by, that female babies are routinely drowned right after birth in China. Do we blame this on Buddhism? Maybe it is time to nuke them and exterminate them like rats.

The real issue, it seems to me, has little to do with religion and more with cultural mores and speaks more to how females are devalued in so many societies throughout the world.

It is this lack of respect for life if that life is female that needs to be dealt with. Deal with that, and all of these sins against women (including those in America where such things as women who are raped so often being seen as the instigators occur) will be handled.
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George K
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Finally
Excellent point Rick. However, are the abortions taking place in the name of Buddhism? I think not. However, the circumcisions are urged in the name of Islam. It's not a question of the predominant religion in the area. It's a question of what those who claim to speak for that religion advocate.

When Lutherans call for female circumcision, I'll call them wannabe gynecologists as well.
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Apr 2 2006, 07:06 PM
Kathy, I said that it doesn't take a majority to constitute a significant threat. You disagreed with this, and then started talking about understanding the Muslims and attempting diplomatic means to halp solve the problem. Whether you agree or disagree with my comment, neither of issues actually speaks to it. Neither, for that matter, have I ever argued against understanding or dimplomacy. But just as I don't believe it takes a majority to constitute a threat, neither do I foolishly believe that understanding and diplomacy will solve every dispute; whether political, cultural, religious, or otherwise relating to human rights in general.

Again using a historical example: a minority of residents of the South, much less the entire United States, were slaveholders. Using the "majority argument," no one should have made a big deal out of slavery, or worked - or fought, or died - to end it. The same applies to the continuum of civil rights for blacks, or any other minority group in our history. To argue that the ills found in a particular society should be minimized or excused based on the minority status of its occurrence is really a highly tenuous piece of intellectual territory to stake out.

You don't like MEMRI because you think they try to say that these people reflect a majority of Arab/Muslim thought. You and I may - in fact, I'm sure that we do - disagree on what percentage of the Muslim world actually holds these beliefs. But as I said before, whether they are a majority opinion - or whether MEMRI tries to misrepresent them as a majority if they aren't - isn't really relevant to the problem that these people represent. To set MEMRI up as a straw man to battle against does nothing to address the underlying problem. As I said earlier, "the thing speaks for itself" - with or without MEMRI.

This argument has gone off in so many tangents that I simply don't have the time to parse through everything everyone has lobbed at me here. I also have not responded to Bach's previous post for the same reason. Honestly, it would be a full time job to do so.

I'll respond to the points that stick out. I don't mean to be evasive if I haven't responded to them all. I have a job that needs attention.

First - I don't remember saying anywhere that the activities of a minority cannot constitute a threat. All one has to do is look at the Taliban to refute that notion. What I meant is that I question the good that can come from MEMRI's tactic of taking the most extreme news stories and giving them as much air time as possible. God knows there's enough western enmity brewing in the western world against the Muslim world. Do those flames really need to be fanned? All I can imagine they might hope to accomplish is to further foment western hatred, particularly in the US, so when we decide to nuke Iran we'll all be cheering because those damn monstous Muslims deserved it.

Believe me, I am not for a second arguing that we should ignore the problems in the Muslim world (any more than I argue we should ignore the problems in Africa or elsewhere in the world). I will argue, however, that preemptive warfare has proven to be a poor way to solve such problems, and I fear that MEMRI's mission, again, is to steel our minds to the eventuality of taking further such action in the mid-east. These are incredibly complex problems that will require equally complex solutions with lots of adjustments along the way. This adminsitration's attempt to solve the problem with this war is akin to going after a hornet's nest with a club and I suspect that the MEMRI folks would love to see us go in again with clubs in Iran. Certainly there are times that dimplomacy fails. Sometimes sanctions are needed instead, or in combination. And, having solid alliances with other like-minded nations is critical, something we had in abundance until Bush decided to thumb his nose at world opinion.

And I agree that using MEMRI as a straw man argument is silly. One would think I spend my nights fretting about MEMRI from the bandwidth I've wasted on it here. Believe me, I've got bigger things to keep me awake at night. I will continue to read and view things I see from MEMRI with interest. As I said, they do compile a lot of very good stuff. I just don't like their mission and I don't like the way that they cloaked it - at least in the beginning; now that the word is out , maybe their more open about it.
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kathyk
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Interesting article, Bach - Everything Anyone ever wanted to know about MEMRI. I will take more time to read it later. I will say it is a mite presumptious of you to proclaim how I've formulated my opinions over my lifetime.
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kathyk
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George K
Apr 3 2006, 03:06 AM
Excellent point Rick. However, are the abortions taking place in the name of Buddhism? I think not. However, the circumcisions are urged in the name of Islam. It's not a question of the predominant religion in the area. It's a question of what those who claim to speak for that religion advocate.

When Lutherans call for female circumcision, I'll call them wannabe gynecologists as well.

The practice is despicable. But, let's not forget that it is much more widespread in sub-Saharan Africa. Has MEMRI covered the abuses there at all?


African genital mutilation stats
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iainhp
Middle Aged Carp

Why is it that male circumcision is acceptable in the name of religion?
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kenny
Apr 1 2006, 02:01 PM
quote: Dr. Muhammad Wahdan: Reality is a mistake, we must rectify it.



Remarkable! :hair:

Gotta love them religions! :rolleyes:

You can't blame it on religion in general. It's the fanatics in religion that gives them a bad name. The man's a nutjob!
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bachophile
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Quote:
 
But, let's not forget that it is much more widespread in sub-Saharan Africa. Has MEMRI covered the abuses there at all?


homework dear kathy...

link

and furthermore, the highest prevalence of the practice is in egypt somalia and sudan, as the map shows.

Posted Image

this is followed by the sub saharan belt. nontheless the practice is exclusivly a muslim practice, not being part of the african tribal culture. it is found outside of africa, primarily in northern saudi arabia, southern jordan as well as parts of indonesia and malyasia.

i say this not be a muslim basher, but to make sure that things said in posts remain accurate and factual.
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Matt G.
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bachophile
Apr 3 2006, 01:18 PM
.... nontheless the practice is exclusivly a muslim practice ....

This exclusivity may come as a shock to the 75% to 100% of the females in Ethiopia and Eritrea.
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Larry
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I will continue to read and view things I see from MEMRI with interest. As I said, they do compile a lot of very good stuff. I just don't like their mission and I don't like the way that they cloaked it


But you have stated in the past that you *do* agree with Al Jareeza's mission....
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