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Total Eclipse of the Son
Topic Started: Mar 31 2006, 04:38 PM (1,287 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
::snicker::

One wonders how much of Bush's obsession with Hussein and his single-minded drive to invade and occupy Iraq when there were so many telling him to slow down and think it through is little more than the son wanting to one-up the father.

It's just shame that Daddy can't pull Junior out of this failure the way he has done with all of his son's other failures in his various careers.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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It's just a shame that Ricky actually thinks the USA is losing the war in Iraq.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Rick is a leftover 60s pacifist, 89th. He not only thinks we're losing the war in Iraq, he *wants* us to lose it, just like he wanted us to lose the war in Vietnam. He should be run out of the country on a rail right along with every other traitor like him.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
The 89th Key
Mar 31 2006, 09:50 PM
It's just a shame that Ricky actually thinks the USA is losing the war in Iraq.

Do you honestly believe we are winning?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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Larry, Rick isn't a traitor. He disagrees with the war and Bush's policy, but his opinion isn't hurting anyone, nor is it putting this country in danger.

Rick is the reason why this country is so great. I would hope he'd say the same thing about me.
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The 89th Key
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Rick, I think we are winning, but I don't think it's a done deal yet. I might even go as far as to say that no one is winning or losing right now, since it's very unclear what will happen. But I definitely wouldn't say we are losing right now. That's the only wrong conclusion about the current state of the war, IMO.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
89th, Rick doesn't just disagree with Bush's policy regarding the Iraq war, he has spent his adult life fighting any effort to defend the country. He has admitted to being an antiwar activist during the Vietnam war, and as far as I'm concerned anyone who actively works toward undermining the defense of the nation is a traitor.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Iran is winning the war in Iraq.

jf

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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Personally, I don't think we're losing. But I do wonder whether we're capable of winning, and how to go about doing that. It seems, at the moment, that we're engaged in an very long-term war of attrition. The best parallel I can think of is World War I, where progress was measured foxhole by foxhole.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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FrankM
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Senior Carp
First a truism: if we remain there no matter what happens, we won't lose. But the key issue is at what point is our cost not worth the result. Many economists claim the oil will flow from the mideast regardless of who is in power there (excluding radical fringe groups). Although I am certainly no economist ( I have a real job), that makes sense to me.

There are of course other pertinent issues, including defending the US against terrorist attacks. But again there is a point where the cost is not worth the result, especially since the connection between our "winning" the Iraqi peace and the intensity of the terrorist threat to the US is not especially clear.

Do I think we have crossed the point where the cost is no longer worth it? I don’t think we’re even close to that point. I also see many signs that we are gradually improving our diplomacy, strategies and tactics for and in Iraq. Hopefully, it isn't too late.

I know there’s nothing new in what I just posted. But I didn't see any other thread I felt like posting in so this is my way of saying good morning to everyone. :cool:

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apple
one of the angels
good morning!.. such a rational greeting and soooo early.
it behooves me to behold
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
QuirtEvans
Apr 1 2006, 06:45 AM
Personally, I don't think we're losing. But I do wonder whether we're capable of winning, and how to go about doing that. It seems, at the moment, that we're engaged in an very long-term war of attrition. The best parallel I can think of is World War I, where progress was measured foxhole by foxhole.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is Northern Ireland on a bigger scale. What Northern Ireland needed, and still needs, was time, and committed politicians and public. In the UK, the politicians actually did a better job of being committed than the mainland public.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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FrankM
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apple
Apr 1 2006, 09:24 AM
good morning!.. such a rational greeting and soooo early.

What a special treat to say good morning to you on a beautiful Saturday morning! I stopped peeking at that "irony" thread, but I trust you somehow extricated yourself from it … eventually. :)
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
At this point winning or losing in Iraq depends almost entirely on the Iraqis themselves. They need to get the security sitiuation in order which they seem to have been making good progress in doing. They also need to form a government. That seems to have stumbled a bit. However, quietly, in the background the economic situation is improving. Living standards are edging up and economic activity seems to be booming. That may be the silent force that actually wins in Iraq. Once people get used to a good economy and living standards it is very difficult to convince them that Jihad or some despotic government or another is the way to go. Their elected leaders will be compelled to work with one another. Iraq has the real potential to be a very wealthy country. In the end the question may not be are we going to win in Iraq but will the Iraqis win in Iraq.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Ah, history...

If this were 1864, or even 1917, Rick probably wouldn't be singing the same song.

It's very difficult to access the net when they won't let you have a laptop in your jail cell....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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The 89th Key
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QuirtEvans
Apr 1 2006, 06:45 AM
Personally, I don't think we're losing. But I do wonder whether we're capable of winning, and how to go about doing that. It seems, at the moment, that we're engaged in an very long-term war of attrition. The best parallel I can think of is World War I, where progress was measured foxhole by foxhole.

See? Rick needs to learn a lesson or two from a reasonable liberal like you and John D'oh. I might not always agree, but at least you make sense.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Apr 1 2006, 12:02 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 1 2006, 06:45 AM
Personally, I don't think we're losing.  But I do wonder whether we're capable of winning, and how to go about doing that.  It seems, at the moment, that we're engaged in an very long-term war of attrition.  The best parallel I can think of is World War I, where progress was measured foxhole by foxhole.

See? Rick needs to learn a lesson or two from a reasonable liberal like you and John D'oh. I might not always agree, but at least you make sense.

To be fair to Rick, I sometimes do agree with him, and I also sometimes rather envy him if he takes what I perceive to be the higher moral ground. The statement 'war is ultimately futile' would indicate a respect for humanity, even if I don't believe the futility to always be true. It's all very well talking about acceptable losses, and strategic bombing, and 'better in the long run', but there's innocent people in Iraq dying by the bucket-load, untold lives being ruined, and most of us here aren't really suffering by a measurable amount, certainly not in comparison to the Iraqi civilians who don't have any choice in this whatsoever.

I don't believe that war is always futile, but it very often can be. What's more, the necessity of war generally indicates an earlier failure in diplomacy, and that is definitely the case here. This isn't finger pointing, it's just a statement of fact.

Rick may appear naive to some here, just as some here may appear to be narrow minded 'wing-nuts' to him. Who am I to say that he's wrong, or naive, or stupid? I'm often wrong, and stupid too, as many can testify. I think that Rick's opinions deserve to be respected, as do almost everybody's.

Quote:
 
If this were 1864, or even 1917, Rick probably wouldn't be singing the same song.

It's very difficult to access the net when they won't let you have a laptop in yuor jail cell....


The world is a much better place than it was in 1917. In 1917 officers in my country's army forced conscripted troops, sometimes at gunpoint, to march slowly into German machine gun fire. That does not indicate a respect for life, that indicates, to me at least, barbarism.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Apr 1 2006, 12:59 PM
Rick may appear naive to some here, just as some here may appear to be narrow minded 'wing-nuts' to him. Who am I to say that he's wrong, or naive, or stupid? I'm often wrong, and stupid too, as many can testify. I think that Rick's opinions deserve to be respected, as do almost everybody's.

I'm not disrespecting Rick's opinions. I've actually said the opposite - that his opinions make this country what it is (as long as it doesn't harm the country, of course).

But I can respect someone's opinions and still say that I think they're 100% wrong.

To think the USA is actually LOSING in Iraq is a wrong view, IMO. You and Quirt are both libs, but you approach things logically and don't make blanket statements like that, which was my point.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Apr 1 2006, 01:25 PM

I'm not disrespecting Rick's opinions. I've actually said the opposite - that his opinions make this country what it is (as long as it doesn't harm the country, of course).

But I can respect someone's opinions and still say that I think they're 100% wrong.

To think the USA is actually LOSING in Iraq is a wrong view, IMO. You and Quirt are both libs, but you approach things logically and don't make blanket statements like that, which was my point.

OK, fair point.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
but there's innocent people in Iraq dying by the bucket-load, untold lives being ruined,


This is not accurate. Yes, there are people being killed, but it needs to be put into perspective. Had we not invaded Iraq, the number of people being killed and the number of lives ruined would be many, many times more. Also, because we invaded Iraq, a whole lot of Iraqis are living a better life right this very minute than they ever dreamed they'd have the chance to do.

This fact gets lost amid all the negativism of antiwar rhetoric.

Just to show how silly the cartoon's premise is, let's look at just what has been accomplished: Afghanistan and Iraq are now pro-American democracies. Both Pakistan and its rival, India, are allies of the United States. Saudi Arabia is of less help to al-Qaeda, which has been weakened. Libya has disarmed. Israel and the Palestinians are closer to a peace settlement than at any time in decades. Popular pressure for democracy has broken out in the Middle East. Free elections followed in Lebanon and democratic stirrings were detected in Syria. That list of positive developments catalyzed by Bush doesn’t even include democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia, or the strengthening of ties to Great Britain, Australia, Poland, and Italy, or the electoral defeat of Germany’s noxious Gerhard Schroeder. Nor does it include Bush’s capital-gains tax cut that contributed to today’s extraordinary economic boom.

All in all, quite a list of achievements.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
The very term "winning the war in Iraq" is non sequitur, imbecelic because we don't know who we're fighting and never really did. How can we win a war when we don't know who the enemy is? Yeah - taking Saddam out was the initial "Mission Accomliplished" and it accomplished a heck of a lot, didn't it? We lost the war the minute that bedlam broke in the Iraq and we had no plan in place to restore order. All we can hope for now is damage control, and even that seems a pipe dream. Our collective military head is spinning as uniformed military Iraqi contingent takes out another uniformed military Iraqi contingent. No one knows at this point who's is fighting who, except that an awful lot of Iraqis of varying persuasions hate us and want us out. Winning the war in Iraq - what a ridiculous concept - almost as ridiculous as the underlying concept of winning the war on terror. Even most of the erstwhile pro-Iraqi hawks with half a brain have realized how flawed that concept was. Instead of focusing our resources on establishing an effective anti-terror network which can only work with widespread international cooperation, we spat on the international community, plunged ourselves headlong into this 400 billion nightmare and see no end to it. Well, at least Bush was honest when he declared the other day that it wouldn't be him ending the war. Thanks a bunch Mr. President.

That cartoon couldn't be more apt.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kathy, you thought Jim Crow was a real person, and that there's no "O" in Bartok. By your own admission, numerous times, you don't even read up on the things you talk about. In short, you don't know what's going on, and don't care to learn. And just as always, your opinion on this topic is poorly thought out, based on incorrect information and sheer ignorance, and just flat out wrong.

Like AC once said - go wait in the truck.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
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The world is a much better place than it was in 1917. In 1917 officers in my country's army forced conscripted troops, sometimes at gunpoint, to march slowly into German machine gun fire. That does not indicate a respect for life, that indicates, to me at least, barbarism.


Actually, I was speaking of Lincoln's suspension of habeus corpus and the Sedition Act, both which happened in the U.S.

Barbarism?

Even the "civilized" world is only a week away from barbarism...hunger and desperation have driven more than one war...

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
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The very term "winning the war in Iraq" is non sequitur, imbecelic because we don't know who we're fighting and never really did.


Oh, I don't know....it's pretty easy around here to delineate who's whining the war in Iraq....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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