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| Bush Finally Admits To The Quagmire | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 21 2006, 11:52 PM (535 Views) | |
| Rick Zimmer | Mar 21 2006, 11:52 PM Post #1 |
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Fulla-Carp
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For months now, we have heard Bush lay out three basic criteria for when the US troops will come home. 1. When there is a functioning democratic government in power. 2. When the insugency is under control. 3. When the Iraqis can handle their own security. During all these months, and especially in the last week, he has been telling us that progress is being made. Slow progress he says, but it is being made. And then today, in his news conference, he drops the bombshell -- American troops will be there thoughout his Presidency and no one will even consider bringing them home until a new President takes office -- January 20, 2009. In short, he has admitted: 1. There will be no functioning democratic government in power during his Presidency. 2. The insurgency will not be brought under control during his Presidency. 3. The Iraqis will not be able to handle their own security during his Presidency. Bush does not see any of these three things happening for at least close to three more years -- and apparently they will definitely not occur before January 2009. When he said that it will be up to a future president to decide to remove the troops, he as much as admitted that he does not intend to even consider this possibility for the remainder of his term. He has washed his hands of that issue. or, more likely, has given up on it. He sees us stuck there, unable to get out. In short, he finally realizes we are in a quagmire. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Kincaid | Mar 22 2006, 12:29 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Perhaps he is trying to eliminate the hope that the MSM and the anti-war crowd instills in the enemy. Anyway, you are making a connection that may not be there. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| JBryan | Mar 22 2006, 05:03 AM Post #3 |
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I am the grey one
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Rick, This:
Does not equal this:
By your reasoning we are in a quagmire in Bosnia or Kosovo or even Korea. We will have troops in Iraq for a long time to come. Long after the Iraqis have a functioning government, the insurgency is brought under control and the Iraqis are able to handle their own security. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Mar 22 2006, 05:09 AM Post #4 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Rick, are you really so naive as to think there would be NO American presence in Iraq after the Iraqi government is functioning properly? There are a lot of reasons we are in Iraq. I thought that was obvious even before the invasion. Oh, he didn't say so? Gee. The President does not show the nation's hand to the whole world as we try to prevent total war in that region against an enemy who would just be stronger later. Wow. That's soooooo dishonest. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | Mar 22 2006, 07:22 AM Post #5 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Rick, that's the most ridiculous thing you've written...... since the post you wrote before it...... Let me try that - I want to see if it makes my ears ring.... 1. Bears **** in the woods. 2. There are tree leaves on the ground in the woods. 3. Bears drag their butts on the ground afterwards. Therefore: 1. Tree leaves in the forest have bear poop all over them. 2. Space aliens from the planet Qumbacha analyze the leaves 3. They discovered that this is why there are no adult Qumbacha Foombars living in the ocean. Ah! Ringing sounds - everywhere! I'm getting dizzy!! Cool!...... now I know why Rick says the things he does - he's getting a buzz!! |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Mar 22 2006, 07:35 AM Post #6 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Do you really believe the American people would have supported a war in 2003 if Bush had said the troops would still be there in 2009 and he had no intention of bringing them home during his Presidency? Are you really saying this is what Bush planned all along and it has taken him this long to tell us? Are you actually saying that when the leader of the US does not have to tell this country his reasons for going to war or his long range plans for that war when he asks Congress to debate giving him authorization? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Mar 22 2006, 07:38 AM Post #7 |
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Fulla-Carp
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So, you are saying that Bush has been lying this entire time about the troops coming home once we have achieved "success" -- which he has defined as I have stated it. Why would he lay out those goals, telling the American people that he intends to bring the troops home when they are met, if this was not/is not his intention? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| George K | Mar 22 2006, 07:42 AM Post #8 |
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Finally
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Let's go to the tape: QUESTION: It was: Will there come a day -- and I'm not asking you when; I'm not asking for a timetable -- will there come a day when there will be no more American forces in Iraq? BUSH: That, of course, is an objective. And that will be decided by future presidents and future governments of Iraq. The likelihood that some American troops may be in Iraq as of 2009--the question was framed in terms of "no more American forces"--is hardly a news flash, either. We still have troops in Germany, more than 60 years after the end of World War II. We still have troops in the Balkans, as well. Neither of these deployments is controversial. Iraq may well be seen as a desirable place to station troops for a considerable length of time. Whether such a longer-term deployment is controversial will depend on how many troops remain in Iraq and, more important, what they are doing there. If the fighting is essentially over and soldiers are not being lost, no one will care about the presence of troops in Iraq, any more than they object to the presence of troops in Germany. Because this story suited most journalists' yearning for a quagmire, it became the lead in newspapers all across America. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| JBryan | Mar 22 2006, 07:48 AM Post #9 |
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I am the grey one
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You can be assured that if by 2008 the situation in Iraq is not substantially stabilized this discussion will be moot because a Democrat will be elected. One who ran on the promise of pulling the troops out. The paradox is that the more successful we are the greater likelihood we will have troops stationed there for some time to come. Right up until the time the Iraqis want them to leave. This whole discussuion is air-headed and silly. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Larry | Mar 22 2006, 07:50 AM Post #10 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Yes. In fact, he made it clear from the beginning that the war on terror would be a long one that would outlast his presidency. Where were you?
You're repeating yourself, apparently to make it look like you have multiple points to make. Again, he told us that at the beginning. See what happens when you stick your fingers in your ears and chant "Bush lied!" over and over? You miss things.
Are you really that stupid or is it all just an act? |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 22 2006, 08:26 AM Post #11 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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JB: That is the Zimmerian Dialect(tm) in action. Make your opponent say whatever it is that helps prop up your own, otherwise unsubstantiated, position regardless of the obvious intent and context of the actual words. The "Bush Finally Admits To The Quagmire" is another good example of the Zimmerian Dialect(tm). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | Mar 22 2006, 08:28 AM Post #12 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Exactly. No way to have an honest discussion with him. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Mar 22 2006, 09:53 AM Post #13 |
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Fulla-Carp
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There are only three reasons why Bush said what he said yesterday. 1. He does not expect the criteria (the three I mentioned in my first post) he set out for the removal of US troops will be met by January 20, 2009. 2. He has changed the criteria (although I have not heard the new criteria). 3. These never were the criteria and hence they have never had any meaning -- Bush's past statements have all been a sham. Now, since I am assured by all on here that Bush would not lie to the American people and is open and honest, I can only assume that #2 and # 3 are not viable options. Thus, that leaves me with just #1. Now you can use whatever word you want, but at least six years and apparently more of trying to achieve those criteria sounds a lot like a quagmire to me. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | Mar 22 2006, 09:59 AM Post #14 |
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I am the grey one
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WOW! I gave up about halfway through that mass of twisted logic. Larry is right. It is impossible to have an honest discussion with you. You cannot even address the points made by others honestly. You, apparently, are nothing but a crank up political hackery machine. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Mar 22 2006, 10:06 AM Post #15 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Listen, If Bush had withdrawn our troops from Iraq, I'd want him strung up by his Nads. If any president in the future wants to pull our troops out, I'd want them hung by their nads (Including Hilary). Why on earth would we ever want to give up a secure military foothold in the middle east? |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| ivorythumper | Mar 22 2006, 01:03 PM Post #16 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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By Rick's accounting, we must still be in a quagmire in Germany, Japan, Italy, and the Phillipines. Why doesn't he demand that the troops return from these countries where we fought and won? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Mar 22 2006, 06:57 PM Post #17 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Is there another reason you can give to explain why he now tells us that he won't even consider bringing the troops home during his Presidency after he has spent the last year telling us they will come home as soon as they are successful -- and he used those objectives for defining success? Were all of his comments the past year or more all just fluff that he never really meant? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| George K | Mar 22 2006, 07:02 PM Post #18 |
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Finally
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Because he never said those words Rick. He never said "won't even consider." You're making it up as you go along. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| JBryan | Mar 22 2006, 07:17 PM Post #19 |
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I am the grey one
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Rick, If I feel the need to be amused I might enter your house of mirrors (or what IT calls the Zimmerian Dialectic) and be amazed at what comes back when I make an argument. You do not discuss this topic in anything like an honest manner. Any rebuttals made to what you post either get flatly ignored (followed by repeated reposting of the same talking points as though they had never been disputed) or you twist them into unrecognizability (with your fun house logic) and demand a response to your counter-arguments as if they had actually addressed anything vaguely resembling the original rebuttal. It's all great for laughs but usually I just don't have the time to screw with it. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Larry | Mar 22 2006, 07:34 PM Post #20 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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That's the best summation of Rick's methods I've seen yet. It's a pathological condition. Liberalism *is* a mental disorder. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Mar 22 2006, 07:37 PM Post #21 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I can only assume, then, that you have no explanation for why he has been telling us for over a year that we will leave when the objectives are achieved and now says we won't be leaving during his presidency. As I said, I see only three possible reasons for him to do this. I've asked if you can think of another reason, and you want to discuss how I respond to posts. That's OK. I understand. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | Mar 22 2006, 07:40 PM Post #22 |
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I am the grey one
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You asked me to respond to an argument based on a false premise. I might feel compelled to walk you through it if I were not certain you would simply ignore it and continue to badger me with the same argument based on the same false premise. Like I said, I just don't feel like screwing with it. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Larry | Mar 22 2006, 07:42 PM Post #23 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Did it ever occur to you that one doesn't disprove the other? That maybe what he's saying is that the objective won't be achieved during his presidency - something he said repeatedly from the very beginning? You list 3 reasons he said what he said, all twisted around to suit your agenda. Here's one to add to the list - he said what he said because what he said was the truth. The fact that you aren't capable of understanding it is beside the point. Liberalism is a mental disorder, Rick. And you're in the terminal stages of the brain rot it causes. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Mar 22 2006, 08:21 PM Post #24 |
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Fulla-Carp
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For over a year, Bush has said there were three things that needed to be achieved before our troops could leave: 1. A functioning democratic government. 2. Control and elimination of the insurgency. 3. Iraqis being able to handle their own security. Now he says we will not be out of there before January 20, 2009 -- and in fact the decision will not be made by him beforehand, just being implemented then. The decision will be made by a different President. An admission that he does not expect to even consider the possibility of getting us out of Iraq. I agree with you that he may be telling the truth by saying the objectives will not be achieved while he is in office. (I gave this as one of the possibilities). He has told us over and over what those objectives are -- and if you are correct, he sees no success for our current efforts while he is in office. Which, to me, translates into a de facto admission that we are stuck (i.e. a quagmire) there for a very long time -- indeed it will have been six years after the invasion until the next President even begings to consider removing our troops. This would make the Iraqi QWar at least the second longest war in oiur Histoiry -- after Vietnam. And if the next President decides to stay there, it could surpass Vietnam. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Larry | Mar 22 2006, 08:26 PM Post #25 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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BUSH LIED! PEOPLE DIED! PNAC AND THE NEOCONS!! DRINK THE KOOLAID!! TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH! WAR FOR OIL! |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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11:29 AM Jul 11