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Do you support the troops?
Yes 23 (95.8%)
No 1 (4.2%)
Total Votes: 24
Do you support our troops?
Topic Started: Jan 25 2006, 02:02 PM (722 Views)
The 89th Key
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Inspired from this article:

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060125/3/2emvs.html
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Here's the take down:

http://www.radioblogger.com/#001332
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rockitman
Junior Carp
Since I pay federal taxes, yes I do support the troops.

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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
In the interview with Hugh whatever, Stein had no bloody idea what he was talking about. And they let him write an op-ed column.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
i will ALWAYS support our troops. i like to think that my grandfather didn't die in vain, and my friends weren't taken away from me in a lost cause.
And how are you today?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I'm sorry, but I find this whole 'I support the troops' thing a little bumper-sticker-esque. Support the troops in what way? What does it mean to support the troops? All the troops? Even that stupid woman who posed in those pictures with naked Iraqis? Can you disagree with the war and support the troops?

It's a slogan.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM
Can you disagree with the war and support the troops?


of course you can. i do.
And how are you today?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
LWpianistin
Jan 25 2006, 09:04 PM
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM
Can you disagree with the war and support the troops?


of course you can. i do.

I don't know what it means to 'support the troops'.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
well, to me it means to respect them and what they are working for, even though i may not agree with the war. how can anyone NOT respect those people?
And how are you today?
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM


It's a slogan.

not to us it isn't

We meet on the base twice a week for worship with families stationed at Ft. Leavenworth. We know several men who are on tour in Afghanistan and Iraq and two more very close friends are scheduled to deploy in a little over 2 months. We help with kids who have parents on the job in other places.

We support our troops.
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Ben
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Senior Carp
I support our troops in the sense that, now that they're over there, it's in everyone's best interest if they patch up the mess they've made quickly, with the lowest casualties possible, and get back home. I don't think they should have gone over there in the first place, but that's no reason to say that I want them all to get killed by insurgents. I don't think many people really want that.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
DivaDeb
Jan 25 2006, 09:11 PM
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM


It's a slogan.

not to us it isn't

We meet on the base twice a week for worship with families stationed at Ft. Leavenworth. We know several men who are on tour in Afghanistan and Iraq and two more very close friends are scheduled to deploy in a little over 2 months. We help with kids who have parents on the job in other places.

We support our troops.

Yes, you clearly do support them, and I apologise Deb if I appeared flippant.

I honestly wasn't trying to discredit the troops with my remarks, but I do believe, for most people, that the statement is nothing more than a slogan. Some people, such as you, are making a difference and really are doing something positive.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
I know you didn't John...and I am sorry, I re-read how I wrote that and boy...did I sound like a snip! I must need a scotch!

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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:21 PM
DivaDeb
Jan 25 2006, 09:11 PM
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM


It's a slogan.

not to us it isn't

We meet on the base twice a week for worship with families stationed at Ft. Leavenworth. We know several men who are on tour in Afghanistan and Iraq and two more very close friends are scheduled to deploy in a little over 2 months. We help with kids who have parents on the job in other places.

We support our troops.

Yes, you clearly do support them, and I apologise Deb if I appeared flippant.

I honestly wasn't trying to discredit the troops with my remarks, but I do believe, for most people, that the statement is nothing more than a slogan. Some people, such as you, are making a difference and really are doing something positive.

I heard an interview on NPR with a psychologist who wrote a book on this stuff. He blamed the lack of troop support in the vietnam era for much of the now-legendary mental health issues some of those veterans face. Apparently about the only way a human's psyche can emerge from teh horrors of war intact is to at least get unconditional respect and gratitude from their home society when they return to it. So this issue has had some historical significance, and it's not just a slogan.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
LWpianistin
Jan 25 2006, 06:04 PM
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM
Can you disagree with the war and support the troops?


of course you can. i do.

There are many, many who would say you can't do both -- and lots of them are right here in this forum.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Ben
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Senior Carp
Yes, but they offer no logical arguments, and instead just sling mud at those with opinions different from theirs and claim victory.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Horace
Jan 25 2006, 09:26 PM

I heard an interview on NPR with a psychologist who wrote a book on this stuff. He blamed the lack of troop support in the vietnam era for much of the now-legendary mental health issues some of those veterans face. Apparently about the only way a human's psyche can emerge from teh horrors of war intact is to at least get unconditional respect and gratitude from their home society when they return to it. So this issue has had some historical significance, and it's not just a slogan.

I know that some people treated the Vietnam vets very poorly and unfairly, and I can believe that this could well cause additional problems for some of them. I think that respecting the troops for what they are having to go through and what they are trying to do is different from 'supporting' them.

I'm probably just being a bit silly and playing with semantics. I've never liked bumper stickers.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Ben
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Senior Carp
What would you say 'supporting' them means? Believing in what they're fighting for?
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Ben
Jan 25 2006, 09:51 PM
What would you say 'supporting' them means? Believing in what they're fighting for?

I don't really know what support means. I think 'respect' is a better word.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Ufford-Chase is currently the Moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA). I've never met Mr. Ufford-Chase, but I know people who have. Based on their firsthand experience and what I've read of him, I'm convinced that he's a sincere man of faith who has a profound sense of love and commitment to humankind, and has had the courage to get "in the trenches" as it were, to help those in need - even though I don't agree with some of the ways that he has exhibited this commitment, I still respect him and his intentions.

(Can you sense there's a big "BUT" coming...)

Here's a blog entry of his from a while back that's relevant to this thread. I know that I've started to paste it into at least a half dozen posts here, and then deleted it before posting.

"Friends,

I need to share a dilemma.

I'm sitting in the Atlanta Airport, in a big, round atrium with restaurants and comfortable chairs - just outside the security checkpoint to go out to the terminals. I've grown accustomed to sitting here and catching up on email as I wait for a flight, and I just had an experience this afternoon that I've learned from experience is a ritual here.

Someone just yelled out, "Let's here it for our troops," and began to clap. Then, as lot's of the folks around me stood to cheer and clap, a woman led a long line of men and women dressed in fatigues through the atrium and they headed for the security area.

I've seen this happen at least half a dozen times now (just this afternoon it's happened twice in less than an hour), and I always feel my stomach twist into knots as I try to decide how to respond. Each time, I feel an urge to clap myself - in an effort to let these young men and women (and most of them look like they're about eighteen or twenty years old) know that I appreciate the hard choices that they've made and the sacrifice that they and their families are making.

On the other hand, what does clapping mean? Am I suggesting support for a war that I believe to have been misguided from the beginning? If I clap, (by the way, it's happening again right now. The same woman leading the group, the same man yelling to whip up our support) am I affirming a commitment to using our military might to respond to our unfocused fear of the "other" out there who is out to get us?

As a Christian, I do believe that we are called to put our faith in one place, to find our security in one place, and that is in the radical love of Jesus Christ.

So what exactly does it mean to "support our troops and oppose the war?" I confess that I've tried standing and clapping, which felt like a violation of my core convictions. I've tried sitting and clapping halfheartedly, which felt like the worst kind of namby-pambyism where I couldn't make up my own mind. I tried sitting and watching, which felt like a betrayal of my belief that there is that of God in every person, and that these folks have made different choices but still deserve my support for showing the courage of their convictions, or maybe because I've inherited a responsibility to "be patriotic" even when I disagree so strongly with what our country is doing."....


I have to admit that, despite any personal respect that I may have for Mr. Ufford-Chase, this dilemma of his makes me want to tear my hair out. He's so overwrought at the idea that showing support for those who have volunteered to be part of our country's armed forces would be seen as approval of national policy that he opposes, that he has trouble offering any visible sign of support to these individuals. He seems more interested in the secondary impression of applauding than its primary purpose and benefit. Frankly, I find that disturbing in a minister.

Mr. Ufford-Chase is a very liberal Christian. I'm not. But while he finds difficulty in offering signs of support for individual soldiers going off to a tour of duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, a moral/political policy he abhors (I'm not sure there's anything that George Bush does, including simply drawing breath, that isn't abhorrent to Mr. Ufford-Chase); I had no such moral dilemma in standing up to support US troops who were shipped out to Bosnia, in a mission I disagreed with, and by a President whose policy I almost universally opposed and whom, as a person, it would be physically impossible to loathe more than I did him.

So what's the difference between Mr. Ufford-Chase and me? I can see the individual inside the uniform, and despite what I believe are sincere attempts to do so, he has trouble pulling off the same. I can separate the individual from the leader's policy, and he has difficulty doing so. But I have problems with this dilemma of his: he is, and I hope to become, a pastor. But we have both been called to be a pastor, in admittedly different ways, to people - not to governments, not to policies, not to movements. To people.

When we let our personal thoughts about governments, policies, and movements - even when those thougts are driven by moral/spiritual positions - to work against our ministry of love for people, we've gotten an upside down sense of priorities, and, in my own opinion, we're misapplying our faith, no matter how noble our intentions.

In fairness to Mr. Ufford-Chase, I do understand his dilemma. He is as he points out in other blog entries, a pacifist. I can certainly understand how a pacifist would definitely have extreme misgivings about offering any sign of support to any person in military uniform, under virtually any circumstance.

I'm not a pacifist, nor do I believe that it's necessary to be a pacifist if one is committed to his Christian faith. I wish for, and work toward, peace wherever it is possible - but not merely peace, but a just peace. Peace that is not just is just a better sounding name for tyranny. And unfortunately, just peace rarely is achieved without first forcing someone to act justly, contrary to their self interest.

That's why, no matter who's in the White House, whatever the mission, I can easily "support the troops." No, I don't support the likes of the uniformed idiots of Abu Ghraib - but truthfully, does anyone outside of the realm of Code Pink, The Daily Kos, and moveon.org really believe that our military is involved in a systemic violation of human rights in their current mission?

I support the current mission. Despite that, I despise the occasional human rights violations, and I want the troops to all come home safely and soon, and for no more innocents to die in the crossfire of war.

But not "support the troops?" Not in my lifetime.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Zimmer
Jan 25 2006, 06:32 PM
LWpianistin
Jan 25 2006, 06:04 PM
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:02 PM
Can you disagree with the war and support the troops?


of course you can. i do.

There are many, many who would say you can't do both -- and lots of them are right here in this forum.

i don't give a sh!t what they say.

as i said before, my grandfather did not spend a year in a POW camp (where he starved to death a few days before Christmas of 1952) in vain, for a "slogan" (as John said). my friends were not taken from me to be put in harm's ways for a "slogan". i never thought the war in Iraq was a good idea, but, as Ben said now that they're over there i support them fully and don't want any more killed or captured than necessary(which should have been 0). i just want my friends and all of their allies to come home safely, whether or not i personally agree with any war ever fought on this earth.
And how are you today?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:43 PM
I've never liked bumper stickers.

i don't either, and i don't own any of the "Support Our Troops" ones, but that doesn't mean i support OR respect them any less. i just wouldn't want a tacky, cliched sticker on my car (if i had one).
And how are you today?
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Dwain,

Thanks for your post.

Debbie
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:43 PM

I know that some people treated the Vietnam vets very poorly and unfairly, and I can believe that this could well cause additional problems for some of them.

I can imagine it would -- because they not only were treated badly, they were literally shunned in many cases. What this country did to those who it sent to fight in that war was atrocious.

I recall about 10 years ago or so talking to a man on a flight. He mentioned he had fought in Vietnam, and I took that up and asked him all sorts of questions about it. He became more and more open as we talked and I learned a lot of what he went through, what the war was like for the soldiers, etc.

At the end of our conversation he thanked me. he said I was the very first person who had not been there who showed any interest in hearing what he went through and what it was like. This must have been 20 years more or less since he came back and I was the FIRST who ever asked.

We treated those soldiers like **** when they came back -- and I have no doubts it had an effect on them.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Zimmer
Jan 25 2006, 10:20 PM
John D'Oh
Jan 25 2006, 06:43 PM

I know that some people treated the Vietnam vets very poorly and unfairly, and I can believe that this could well cause additional problems for some of them.

I can imagine it would -- because they not only were treated badly, they were literally shunned in many cases. What this country did to those who it sent to fight in that war was atrocious.

I recall about 10 years ago or so talking to a man on a flight. He mentioned he had fouhg tin Vietnam, and I tokk that up and asked him all sorts of questions about it. He became more and more open as we talked and I learned a lot of what he went through, what the war was like for the soldiers, etc.

At the end of our conversation he thanked me. he said I was the very first person who had not been there who showed any interest in hearing what he went through and what it was like. This must have been 20 years more or less since he came back and I was the FIRST who ever asked.

We treated those soldiers like **** when they came back -- and I have no doubts it had an effect on them.

it did affect many soldiers, definitely. my uncle was in Veitnam "behind the scenes" as an analyst or something along that line. my parents said he returned as a completely different person. apparently he used to have a great life full of activities and fun. now he is pretty much a hermit, with no phone, and he doesn't respond to mail. he works at a grocery store (last time we heard from him, anyway) and doesn't go out much (by choice). my mom used to ask him about the war and what he did, but he couldn't tell her much, because a) he couldn't tell anyone some of the things he did for the government due to secrecy and b) the pain of reliving it was too great and overpowering. a great shame. he's soooo smart and loving, but the shock of being there changed his brain forever.
And how are you today?
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