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| first encyclical from Benedict XVI; the meaning of love and charity | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 25 2006, 12:10 PM (440 Views) | |
| maple | Jan 25 2006, 12:10 PM Post #1 |
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Junior Carp
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from BBC "Pope Benedict XVI has published his first encyclical, or letter to the whole Catholic Church, devoted to the meaning of love and charity." Papal Encyclical: Deus Caritas Est (God Is Love) |
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| bachophile | Jan 25 2006, 12:17 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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just great. more reading to get done. and more threads to discuss and elaborate. i need to get some work done. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| apple | Jan 25 2006, 12:20 PM Post #3 |
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one of the angels
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I just did read today that it was officially declared that it is NOT A SIN to vote for a pro-choice candidate if you're Catholic. (just an aside) |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| kathyk | Jan 25 2006, 12:36 PM Post #4 |
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Pisa-Carp
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From the little blurb I read in the NY Times, I must say that I am pleasantly surprised with the tenor of the message. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| musicasacra | Jan 25 2006, 02:58 PM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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officially declared by whom? |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 25 2006, 03:06 PM Post #6 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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What is your source? Are you talking about Cardinal Mario Pompedda's statement back in Oct 05? All he was saying is that it is not automatically a sinful action, but might well be if you vote for a pro abortion candidate because he or she is pro abortion. You should also be aware that Pompedda is retired, and was in no way speaking in any official capacity. It is typical of the media to grab things like this and distort them to their advantage. If you have another source, please let me know. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jan 25 2006, 03:17 PM Post #7 |
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Bull-Carp
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IT, what is a person supposed to do if all candidates on your ballot either in support of a status quo that upholds pro-choice or do not consider abortion an election issue? |
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| bachophile | Jan 25 2006, 05:03 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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i believe this is the reference... Cardinal vote for pro-abortion candidate not sinful A leading Italian expert on church law said Catholics are not necessarily sinning if they vote for a candidate who supports legal abortion. Catholic News Service reports that Cardinal Mario Pompedda, the retired head of the Apostolic Signature, the Vatican's supreme court, said Catholics might find sufficient reasons to consider such a candidate a "lesser evil" in a field of imperfect choices. The cardinal made the remarks in an interview published yesterday in the Rome newspaper La Repubblica, following a discussion at the Synod of Bishops on the question of Communion, politics and human life issues. Cardinal Pompedda said that while the church punishes the act of procuring abortion with automatic excommunication voting for a candidate who supports legal abortion is an indirect act that should be viewed differently. "I would be cautious in applying the word 'sin,' which implies intentionality. It would be more accurate to speak of risk or imprudence," he said. "Of course, whoever votes for a 'pro-abortion' candidate assumes a responsibility, but it does not necessarily involve sin as an immediate consequence," he said. The cardinal said a Catholic voter might choose such a pro-abortion candidate as a "lesser evil, when there are no candidates who respond more fully to his scale of values. He might choose him, let's say, for other aspects of his (political) program that the voter supports." Catholics who do vote for such a politician might carry out their own pro-life responsibilities in other ways, for example, by working against abortion through political or cultural initiatives, he said. However, the president of the Pontifical Council for Health Care has argued that Catholics cannot, in conscience, support a politician who favors legal abortion. Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan also made his remarks in an interview with La Repubblica. He was responding indirectly to an intervention by Archbishop William Levada during the discussions of the Synod of Bishop. Archbishop Levada - the US prelate recently chosen by Pope Benedict XVI to be prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - had asked other prelates to reflect on the question that had divided the US hierarchy during the 2004 election year: How bishops should respond to Catholic politicians who support abortion. "A Catholic cannot support a politician who presents abortion as a general norm," said Cardinal Lozano. The Mexican prelate added that "a son of the Church cannot consider himself to be in full communion if he supports what the Church condemns." A Catholic voter, the Vatican's "health minister" continued, should discriminate among the issues on the political agenda. An informed voter, he said, "should know how to distinguish between what represents an attack on life and what promotes the defense of life." He added that a Catholic voter can never be justified in supporting "what constitutes an attack on life." |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| TomK | Jan 25 2006, 05:21 PM Post #9 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm not sure where bach's references come from, but of course pro-life isn't the only thing you should consider when voting for a candidate. It's just a very important point. It is with this case as will all cases of right and wrong--a matter of conscience. The Catholic Church is a church for grown ups. In the end it's up to the individual informed Catholic. The church NEVER said it's OK to vote for any abortion canditate. The Church says: choose what is best wisely. |
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| bachophile | Jan 25 2006, 05:34 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Cardinal vote for pro-abortion candidate not sinful i just was giving a source. not getting involved in the discussion at all. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| TomK | Jan 25 2006, 05:44 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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bach, Couldn't tell. You got it right the second time, though. Thanks. |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jan 25 2006, 06:38 PM Post #12 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Well of course it is not a sin. While I have never voted for a candidate because he was pro-choice, I have voted for many who are (surprised? :rolleyes: ). |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 25 2006, 06:48 PM Post #13 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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not at all. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Shammy | Jan 25 2006, 07:00 PM Post #14 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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I am a Catholic (converted at age 21). My earlier background was protestant & pentecostal. I will admit that I am sometimes at odds with the Church's teachings. I do not always vote for the candidate that is pro-life if the rest of their "platform" is questionable. Somehow, I don't see how banning abortions will turn people to pro-life. Prohibition did not stop people from drinking. I feel that if we want to be true supporters of Pro-Life then we will support those organizations that offer an alternative such as homes for those expectant mothers and assistance afterwards through Catholic charities. But that is just one aspect of pro-life. The other aspects involve the death penalty and quality of life/living with dignity. You don't see as many people signing petitions and demonstrating against the death penalty or against poor quality of care of the elderly. The entire pro-life stand is a tough one to embrace for many of us and I am still wrestling with many aspects of it. I find it tough to support a ban that could possibly result in more lives lost through illegal substandard medical procedures. I am also not a supporter of returning to Latin or reversing Vatican II. I guess you could categorize me as one of those touchy-feely catholics who looks for meaniful ritual among and with those who enjoy a personal relationship with Christ. I like a variety of musical styles and am a member of a choir that does everything from Mozart to Leon Roberts gospel. Some of my other catholic friends like a more subdued approach to their faith. Some of my protestant friends enjoy a more exhuberant approach. We are all going to the same place.... just in different vehicles. |
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I'd rather fall into chocolate. | |
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| TomK | Jan 25 2006, 07:09 PM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Shammy, WELCOME! We've got some good, bad and ugly Catholics here abouts. (I would be the ugly.) Nice post and look forward to hearing more from you. Latin Mass..I like that kind of talk!
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| apple | Jan 25 2006, 08:04 PM Post #16 |
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one of the angels
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that was it.. i was surprised to read it.. that's all |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| FrankM | Jan 26 2006, 05:41 AM Post #17 |
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Senior Carp
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The NYT article: January 26, 2006 Benedict's First Encyclical Shuns Strictures of Orthodoxy By IAN FISHER VATICAN CITY, Jan. 25 — Pope Benedict XVI issued an erudite meditation on love and charity on Wednesday in a long-awaited first encyclical that presented Roman Catholicism's potential for good rather than imposing firm, potentially divisive rules for orthodoxy. The encyclical, titled "God Is Love," did not mention abortion, homosexuality, contraception or divorce, issues that often divide Catholics. But in gentle, often poetic language, Benedict nonetheless portrayed a tough-minded church that is "duty bound," he wrote, to intervene at times in secular politics for "the attainment for what is just." He also suggested that terrorism — which violates Christ's command to "love your neighbor" — had helped inspire his first major statement. "In a world where the name of God is sometimes associated with vengeance or even a duty of hatred and violence, this message is both timely and significant," he wrote. "For this reason, I wish in my first encyclical to speak of the love which God lavishes on us and which we in turn must share with others." The encyclical is the highest form of papal teaching, and there had been much anticipation in the church for Benedict's first, given his long service as Pope John Paul II's outspoken, conservative defender of the faith. But in contrast to his public reputation, Benedict, 78, who was elected in April, began his encyclical with a perhaps surprising first premise: conceding that the church has at times viewed sexuality as something "negative," he placed erotic love between married men and women at the center of God's plan. Sex, he wrote, should mature into unselfish concern for the other, creating a love that leads to working for charity and justice for others. "Love is indeed 'ecstasy,' " he wrote in a document that ran 71 pages in the English translation. "Not in the sense of a moment of intoxication, but rather as a journey, an ongoing exodus out of the closed inward-looking self towards its liberation through self-giving, and thus toward authentic self-discovery and indeed the discovery of God." In some measure, this is an encyclical of two popes: its second half, on charity and the role of the church in society, was begun under John Paul, who died in April. But church officials said the finished document, beginning with a section on love, was very much the work of Benedict. "You cannot say that this pope added the first or the second part," said Archbishop Paul Josef Cordes, the pope's top adviser on charities. "You have to see that this pope is always following the steps, the traces, of John Paul II, and in this way it is a continuation, but not much." Before becoming pope, when he was known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Benedict was often seen as a divisive figure, lauded by conservative Catholics for his devotion to orthodoxy and criticized by liberal ones for not sharing their vision for a changing, more modern church. But Benedict's elaboration on love and charity was largely praised across the church on Wednesday as a document that sought to express what is common to all Catholics. "He's not wagging his finger about what's wrong with contemporary culture," said Msgr. Kevin W. Irwin, dean of the School of Theology and Religious Studies at Catholic University of America, in Washington. "He's saying, this is the big picture, and out of that you get a positive, optimistic ultimate vision of what Catholicism is." Christian Weisner, spokesman for the German chapter of the liberal Catholic group We Are Church, called the encyclical "a sign of hope" that Benedict would prove to be a "human face for Christianity and for the Catholic Church." He said, however, that he hoped that the pope's emphasis on love would make him more open to opposing views. "Loving your neighbors also means loving critical theologians, he said. "He also has to apply these ideas within the church itself." The Rev. Joseph Fessio, editor of the conservative St. Ignatius Press, which publishes Benedict's books in English, said the themes and gentle tone of the encyclical should finally put to rest the stereotype of Benedict as a conservative ideologue. "I can suggest a subhead for all the major media: 'Is this the Panzer Cardinal?' " Father Fessio said, referring to a nickname for Cardinal Ratzinger that was sometimes used in the press. Nonetheless, Father Fessio said that in the encyclical Benedict was true to traditional church teachings: his definition of love in it applied to men and women, married and monogamous "forever." "What is he doing there?" Father Fessio asked. "He is saying no divorce. He is saying no promiscuity. He is saying no multiple wives. No homosexuality. He's completely positive, but if you accept the teaching, consequences follow." The subject of love, some church officials said, was not the most obvious one for a first encyclical. Monsignor Cordes joked this week to reporters that some people considered celibate priests talking about love as they would "a blind man talking about colors." But the encyclical presents love as a fundamental force, and Benedict sought to unite the ideas of sexual love and a broader, more altruistic love. He paraphrased Nietzsche as saying Christianity's moral rules had blown "the whistle" on sexuality, a vital part of human nature. Benedict admitted the charge to some degree, but said the church was not alone in distorting sex. "Nowadays Christianity of the past is often criticized as having been opposed to the body; and it is quite true that tendencies of this sort have always existed," he said. "Yet the contemporary way of exalting the body is also deceptive. Eros, reduced to pure 'sex,' has become a commodity, a mere 'thing' to be bought or sold." He said that through monogamous relationships between married men and women, love grew and was "less and less concerned with itself, increasingly seeks the happiness of the other." This love, he wrote, mirrors God's love for humankind, reflects Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, and leads to a larger love for neighbors, then for mankind. This leads to the second part of the encyclical, on charity, which he said represented love as an "ordered service to the community." The new document also carefully outlines the church's rationale for weighing in on political issues. "The church cannot and must not take upon herself the political battle to bring about the most just society possible," Benedict wrote. "She cannot and must not replace the state." "Yet at the same time," he added, "she cannot and must not remain on the sidelines in the fight for justice." Laurie Goodstein contributed reporting from New York for this article. |
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| Aqua Letifer | Jan 26 2006, 07:26 AM Post #18 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Well, that's def. what I would follow. The kind of sin we're talking about here, I believe, is "a thought, word or deed at variance with the law of God." By voting for a candidate because of his domestic policies, for example (who happens to be pro-choice, which politically you don't really look at very closely), I can't see where God's law is being violated. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jan 26 2006, 07:57 AM Post #19 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I am only about 1/3 of the way through it. Much there to consider. The thing that has struck me so far is that it seems to be the type of teaching which can be used by theologians and the Church in evolving the Church's teachings on sexuality. He states that the highest expression and experience of human love -- that which is most close to the Divine -- is when the sexual and sensual expression of love (eros) is combined with the deeper and more giving expression of love focused on the other (agape). Such a teaching, of course, can be applied to all sorts of committed relationships, not just to men and women. I am not saying that Benedict is doing this; clearly he is not nor do I expect him to. But what he says does provide a basis for theologians and philosophers, as well as others, to continue to postulate and develop the theological implications of non-traditional commited relationships when they meet these criteria of combined eros and agape. I also think it clearly puts to rest any idea that the body and its physical pleasure is inherently evil or that sex is inherently degrading. He makes it very clear that it is the use of the body and the intent of that use which may be bad or evil; but the body itself and physical and sexual pleasure are great gifts from God to be used and enjoyed. Assuming this is a short papacy (5 years more or less), it seems to me this is a very appropriate first encyclical for I think it is likely, if not a sure thing, that the two biggest societal issues Benedict will face are the changing understanding of human sexuality and the issue of the obligation of religious people to work towards a world and society based on commitment to the good of others, rather than serving simply the needs of oneself and one's "tribe". I also think this shows what many had argued about Benedict when he became Pope -- that he understands the difference between his role as chief enforcer of the faith when he headed the Congregation on Doctrine and the role of the Pope in providing a framework, rather than rules. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jan 26 2006, 07:59 AM Post #20 |
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Bull-Carp
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Worth reflection. We're bombarded by this buying and selling of human dignity and intergrity daily. |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 26 2006, 12:29 PM Post #21 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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This encyclical is a positive and virtually verbatim continuation of John Paul II's thought (such as Love and Responsibility). As profound, articulate and beautiful of a reflection as it is, I don't see it as particularly innovative or evincing of any heightened development, or grounds for redefining chastity to more broadly include other forms of sexually expressed agapic-erotic relationships that Rick seems to hold hope for. He is certainly pointing out how high the bar has been raised in Christ's example for us, and the mechanisms by which in Christ we may all participate more fully in God's love for all humanity through service and genuinely sacrificing ourselves for the good of the beloved.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 26 2006, 12:31 PM Post #22 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I'll say two Ave's for penance. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| FrankM | Jan 26 2006, 01:07 PM Post #23 |
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Senior Carp
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deleted |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 26 2006, 01:09 PM Post #24 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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delete |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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