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If Roe vs. Wade gets overturned. . .
Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 06:15 PM (890 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I agree with you on both points -- a strict interpretation of Blackmun's decision would not allow the widespread and "generous" application that it now holds in the American political landscape; but from the way it is held today, how would any medical or health condition not be protected? Maybe there is more case law that nuances it.

And I agree with you about law school.

Shalom.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
 
Mark
Jan 24 2006, 11:33 AM
Anarchy is worse than Slavery?

???

Of course it is. Without an order to society, injustices such as slavery can never be overturned.


That is the most asinine thing I have ever heard you say. :veryangry:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 24 2006, 01:13 PM
ivorythumper
 
Mark
Jan 24 2006, 11:33 AM
Anarchy is worse than Slavery?

???

Of course it is. Without an order to society, injustices such as slavery can never be overturned.


That is the most asinine thing I have ever heard you say. :veryangry:

why is that? argue against it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Actually, I think IT is right.

In a state of anarchy, anything is possible, without consequence. Slavery. Rape. Torture. Murder. In a state of anarchy, might makes right, and anything the mighty want to do is not only possible, but uncorrectable.

I don't think it would be possible effectively to eliminate slavery in an anarchical society.

So, elimination of the anarchy would have to be the first-order priority.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mark
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Give me liberty or give me death.

Anarchy is not worse than slavery.

Death is preferable to slavery.

For me anyway.

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ivorythumper
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Mark
Jan 24 2006, 02:50 PM
Give me liberty or give me death.

Anarchy is not worse than slavery.

Death is preferable to slavery.

For me anyway.

Your reverting to sloganeering, Mark. Show me the argument.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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I place slavery right there next to genocide on the acceptability meter

For one human being to own another human being is an abomination.

Anarchy is the natural state of the universe.

Slavery is not.

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musicasacra
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Mark
Jan 24 2006, 02:56 PM
I place slavery right there next to genocide on the acceptability meter

For one human being to own another human being is an abomination.

Anarchy is the natural state of the universe.

Slavery is not.

how do you prevent slavery in a state of anarchy?
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ivorythumper
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Mark
Jan 24 2006, 02:56 PM
I place slavery right there next to genocide on the acceptability meter

For one human being to own another human being is an abomination.

Anarchy is the natural state of the universe.

Slavery is not.

If you are drawing an analogy to the "universe" then I don't think it holds. We call it the "cosmos" for a reason -- it is clearly ordered (I am not speaking theologically here) even if we don't understand the order or the mechanics of the order.

I certainly agree with you that slavery is not defensible from my ethical system, nor is genocide and indeed these are abominations.

But when we speak of anarchy -- literally the lack of order -- we are at the far boundaries of anything that can even be considered "society". Anthropologically, it is probably more like tribal warfare of primal family groups gathered around an alpha male. The survival of the group/ tribe/ primal family is the only thing of consequence, so the elimination of rival groups (genocide) or their capture and servitude (slavery) is not only necessary but a positively good thing.

You have the benefit of civilization from which to make your value judgments, and appeals to group consensus, political discourse, and the peace of social order that allows us to consider the question -- anarchy does not allow for that.






The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Bernard
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Overturning Roe v Wade would not make abortion illegal. It would turn the issue back over to the States. Good or bad? I don't know. But in some states abortion would be legal and in others it would not.

From what I've heard Roe v Wade was not a good use of the law. I don't have the time to go read up on it now but I will at some point. But although I'm a supporter of women's right to choose, I'd rather Roe v Wade be overturned (since it was not a good decision) and a new opinion subsequently handed down that holds water.

But I for one am not waging any money on the overturning of Roe v Wade any time soon.
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TomK
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I for one wish they would find the "gay gene" already.

Once that's found all our born kids would give us grandchildren. :D
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
how do you prevent slavery in a state of anarchy?


That makes three people who have asked the same question, Mark, in different ways. As IT said, all you're doing so far is sloganeering.

Anarchy is essentially the lack of societal order. Without a societal order, I'm at a loss how you can effectively ban ANYTHING, slavery or anything else.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
QuirtEvans
Jan 24 2006, 07:25 PM
Quote:
 
how do you prevent slavery in a state of anarchy?


That makes three people who have asked the same question, Mark, in different ways. As IT said, all you're doing so far is sloganeering.

Anarchy is essentially the lack of societal order. Without a societal order, I'm at a loss how you can effectively ban ANYTHING, slavery or anything else.

I'm being a bit silly now, but true anarchy would imply that slavery was not possible, since slavery is in of itself a form of social order.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
John D'Oh
Jan 24 2006, 07:30 PM
I'm being a bit silly now, but true anarchy would imply that slavery was not possible, since slavery is in of itself a form of social order.

(couldn't resist)

Anarchy RULES! :rolleyes:
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Look.

Slavery is so objectionable to me that I would prefer anarchy which is also objectionable to me just less so.

To say that slavery is acceptable over anything is wrong. It is unacceptable no matter what.

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DivaDeb
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Being enslaved is not the worst thing I can imagine...which may say more about the content of my nightmares than anything. I think I'm probably more frightened by anarchy than slavery. Neither being a favored state, you understand.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 24 2006, 08:47 PM
Look.

Slavery is so objectionable to me that I would prefer anarchy which is also objectionable to me just less so.

To say that slavery is acceptable over anything is wrong. It is unacceptable no matter what.

OK, well let's you and me do our best to keep the US from falling into either. OK?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Anarchy may seem preferable to slavery but anarchy can never prevent slavery or anything else for that matter.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I never said it would.

Nor did I mean to imply it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 24 2006, 09:31 PM
I never said it would.

Nor did I mean to imply it.

JB says it and you're cool with it. I say it and it's asinine. Hmmm...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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WHAT???
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Mark
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Are you telling me that the world did not have a "social order" when people were enslaved?



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ivorythumper
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Mark
Jan 24 2006, 10:06 PM
Are you telling me that the world did not have a "social order" when people were enslaved?

It is rather obvious that the world did have a social order when people were enslaved -- as recently as 140 years ago in America, and still in the Sudan.

Reread my post on defining anarchy -- before the development of the "polis" (probably 7000-9000 bc -- the earliest "city" we know of is Catal Huyuk from maybe 7000 bc) -- humans were tribal and family groupings. Probably still the best source for this is still Fustel de Coulange's "The Ancient City" from 1865. What i am laying out is the commonly accepted academic anthropological model. There was no "social order" beyond the grouping. There was barter and trade and off marrying. Slavery arose out of conquering and dominating other tribes/ family groups. There was no sense of "brotherhood" or "common humanity" since it was tribal consciousness (there was not even necessarily the sense of "personal identity" if Jean Gebser's model in "The Ever Present Origin" is correct. An alien was either to be killed or used like a domesticated animal.

This pattern continued as civilization developed. It is only a fairly recent phenomenon, and a specifically Christian insight, that slavery was wrong. It is only because of the developed social order that slavery was able to be abolished. Had we remained in the anarchic state of tribal consciousness before the development of the polis (and hence the political order) there would never have been a mechanism or a common framework for dismantling the system of slavery.

Go back and read what I first wrote, and see if you still disagree with the argument.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I should know better then to argue with you about anything.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 24 2006, 10:36 PM
I should know better then to argue with you about anything.

I still don't know why you thought it was asinine.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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