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Watch your kids on the internet..; even the good ones...
Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 12:55 PM (1,206 Views)
Ben
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Senior Carp
There are excellent internet databases that should certainly be used. Books are great, but they can't be a million places at once, like an internet article can.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

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maple
Junior Carp
Can you give me an example of a subject for a "major paper requiring an internet source" a 12 year old might be assigned and which couldn't be done better and faster by reading a very short list of books? I sure can't think of one.
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Ben
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At 12 years old I wrote a paper on Winston Churchill. I used both books and online sources. The good online sources are just as good as books and sometimes better. Yes, the bad ones are bad, but that's why you don't use them. You seem to think there is something about an online database which makes it intrinsically inferior to a book, which is simply not the case.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Can you give me an example of a subject for a "major paper requiring an internet source" a 12 year old might be assigned and which couldn't be done better and faster by reading a very short list of books? I sure can't think of one.


Certainly, it's possible to do most assignments using books, but better and faster? I sincerely doubt it.

However, if you want an assignment that cannot be done with books, think researching any topic in current events. Are there a lot of books about the NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush? How about books on the Iraqi parliament? Are there a lot of books about Hurricane Katrina?

You could certainly research that stuff in periodicals by hand, but I really don't think you can do it "better and faster" that way.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Rick Zimmer
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maple
Jan 25 2006, 06:11 PM
Can you give me an example of a subject for a "major paper requiring an internet source" a 12 year old might be assigned and which couldn't be done better and faster by reading a very short list of books? I sure can't think of one.

I have taught about political campaigns to 7th and 8th graders as the campaigns were going on. I had them use the net a lot to stay current on a daily basis.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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maple
Junior Carp
Is "NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush" a subject you would assing to 12 year olds? Of course it's easier to search online. But for a school project contrasting the coverage on an item in 2-3 newspapers available at the school library is a sufficiently demanding task. And probably they would get done faster as well.

I don't say there aren't good online sources. But what I see is that kids end up going to Google and searching for some keywords to find "sources". So what I'm questioning is the educational value of making young children search on Google to do their assignments. How are they prepared to discern what is a "good" or "less good" source?

I just don't see that the case for "search the Internet first" is strong enough to justify the current trend of forcing children to do it.


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Ben
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If a teacher is telling students simply to "search the internet" then the problem is that the teacher is a moron. At my school, there are links to about twelve excellent online databases on the library website that we are instructed to use for papers. Each time a paper is assigned, the teacher specifically says, "Do not search Google."
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Is "NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush" a subject you would assing to 12 year olds? Of course it's easier to search online. But for a school project contrasting the coverage on an item in 2-3 newspapers available at the school library is a sufficiently demanding task. And probably they would get done faster as well.


Try Hurricane Katrina, or the tsunami. I know kids significantly younger than 12 who have had homework "research" assignments on both of those topics.

As for faster ... I think you and I have a very, VERY different definition of faster. There is no doubt in my mind that using the internet is a far faster way of researching than checking hard copies at the library.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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sue
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maple
Jan 25 2006, 06:50 PM
Is "NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush" a subject you would assing to 12 year olds? Of course it's easier to search online.  But for a school project contrasting the coverage on an item in 2-3 newspapers available at the school library is a sufficiently demanding task.  And probably they would get done faster as well.

I don't say there aren't good online sources. But what I see is that kids end up going to Google and searching for some keywords to find "sources".  So what I'm questioning is the educational value of making young children search on Google  to do their assignments. How are they prepared to discern what is a "good" or "less good" source?

I just don't see that the case for "search the Internet first" is strong enough to justify the current trend of forcing children to do it.

No, they shouldn't be googling everything, for the very reasons you stated. There are however, some excellent databases that most public libraries subscribe to. They are replacing reams of paper, i.e. newspapers, journals, even encyclopedia, items that smaller, and even bigger libraries are not having to store (or purchase as often)anymore. And they are reliable. Purchased by yearly subscriptions, available (quite often from your home computer) with access by a library card number. (I'm going on the assumption that Americans are doing this as much as Canadians). Ebscohost is one of the biggest, and best, and they have a kid-friendly database as well. Access Science is brilliant.(more for high school and up, but current info, updated regularly). There are many more encyclopedias, dictionaries, etc. And being electronic, they can be updated often. They are a viable source of real information, and in my humble opinion, :nerd: one of the best uses of the internet.

ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.


EDIT: I just saw Ben's post. What he said. :thumb:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Jan 25 2006, 07:19 PM
Are there a lot of books about the NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush? How about books on the Iraqi parliament? Are there a lot of books about Hurricane Katrina?

Pretty advanced stuff for 12 year olds... I think there are plenty of newspaper articles and magazines that cover these current topics which would be perfectly acceptable for a 7th grade research paper, and would also teach the kids some library research techniques.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Ben
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Sue, I agree completely. EBSCOhost is one of the databases our library subscribes to, along with Gale, Britannica Online, SIRS ... they're really great, although they're certainly not perfect yet.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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Ben
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ivorythumper
Jan 25 2006, 09:17 PM
QuirtEvans
Jan 25 2006, 07:19 PM
Are there a lot of books about the NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush?  How about books on the Iraqi parliament?  Are there a lot of books about Hurricane Katrina?

Pretty advanced stuff for 12 year olds... I think there are plenty of newspaper articles and magazines that cover these current topics which would be perfectly acceptable for a 7th grade research paper, and would also teach the kids some library research techniques.

Part of library research techniques now must include online research. Not to say that they shouldn't be encouraged to use print sources. Research papers I've done have always had a minimum of one print source.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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DivaDeb
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ivorythumper
Jan 25 2006, 07:17 PM
QuirtEvans
Jan 25 2006, 07:19 PM
Are there a lot of books about the NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush?  How about books on the Iraqi parliament?  Are there a lot of books about Hurricane Katrina?

Pretty advanced stuff for 12 year olds... I think there are plenty of newspaper articles and magazines that cover these current topics which would be perfectly acceptable for a 7th grade research paper, and would also teach the kids some library research techniques.

Not my 12 year old! Kids still learn traditional library research as well, IT. Bottom line, they *have* to learn both. They must know how to use online databases. You aren't giving them the education they need if they don't know how to navigate these kinds of resources. As in anything else, the earlier they learn it, the easier and more natural it is for them.

My kids are homeschooled but we require them to use both printed resource material and online resources. From their first trips to the library all the way through high school they learn to use all available materials. We live in a small town with a very small library. I have a child who has won special recognition in the Greater Kansas City Science Fairs on two occasions, the first time as a 5th grader. Research skill, on and offline, is absolutely indispensable to us. Our library certainly could not have the quality and volume of material available in printed form that our kids have access to on the web.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
children are still learning how to research books and use good research techniques when referring to books and magazines, but they are also being taught how to properly research online these days. to give an example of a major paper (for a 12 year old) that required internet research: when i was 12/13-ish i wrote a 1 000 word essay on MLK Jr. that our IT teacher INSISTED be done with online research only. if you disagree with this idea, do you also disagree with children learning to type on a keyboard and perfer them to write with pen and paper all of the time? computers and all that they offer have become a big part of the education system, and people simply have to catch up. my university was the first in VA to insist that all students have a laptop. our school library is often used by the public, and i see children in there all the time looking up books AND internet sites(with parental supervision of course). there are often school buses that bring kids of all ages (from about 10-18) to use our library for a short field trip kind of thing. 12 year olds are clearly more technologically advanced than some of you are aware. look around you.
And how are you today?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Ben
Jan 25 2006, 07:24 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 25 2006, 09:17 PM
QuirtEvans
Jan 25 2006, 07:19 PM
Are there a lot of books about the NSA's interception of e-mails under President Bush?  How about books on the Iraqi parliament?  Are there a lot of books about Hurricane Katrina?

Pretty advanced stuff for 12 year olds... I think there are plenty of newspaper articles and magazines that cover these current topics which would be perfectly acceptable for a 7th grade research paper, and would also teach the kids some library research techniques.

Part of library research techniques now must include online research. Not to say that they shouldn't be encouraged to use print sources. Research papers I've done have always had a minimum of one print source.

The point is, if you are looking for articles in back issues of newspapers and magazines, you are going to find less and less of them in libraries. What you are going to find are online databases that have this material. It's a reality. Less paper, good use of technology.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I am not concerned about kids not being able to develop a facility with computers or not being able to find things on the net, are you?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No, IT, from where I stand that does NOT appear to be the problem. :biggrin:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jan 26 2006, 06:04 AM
I am not concerned about kids not being able to develop a facility with computers or not being able to find things on the net, are you?

I'm concerned about kids being able to find good, well-written sources of material on the internet - and using a research project to teach them how to find those sources - rather than just any old link that comes up that happens to contain the word "Katrina" is a very good thing.

You also have to remember that not every kid has a computer at home, IT. A lot of the kids I teach don't. So they have their computer lab time every week, and they learn how to do research and use the internet at school.

I don't understand why people are so hide-bound about kids learning They Way I Learned, because that's usually what these discussions come down to. The way information is presented and how it has accessed has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. Of course the way we teach kids to access information had to change as well. To not give kids access to that technology - and to not teach them how to use it properly - would be irresponsible.
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Clap, clap, clap.

I might add "and responsibly" after "properly", but that's just a quibble.

I think it's also critically important, in this day and age, to teach children how to distinguish between better and worse sources of information. And to read absolutely everything with a critical eye, to try to discover the biases of the author.

The most important lesson we can ever teach a child is how to think for himself or herself.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Amen...
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jan 26 2006, 02:04 AM
I am not concerned about kids not being able to develop a facility with computers or not being able to find things on the net, are you?

No I'm not worried, because it is being done. And we have to teach them to discern fact from fiction, in whatever form they find information, books and newspapers included. To not blindly believe everything presented to them, to question, to reason. But yes, they need to know how to use computers to access information. To deny that is not dealing with today's, and tomorrow's reality.
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Jan 26 2006, 05:06 AM

The most important lesson we can ever teach a child is how to think for himself or herself.

Yes.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Eggzackly. What Dol and Sue said.

There are many things in this world that are dangerous if used incorrectly. The problem lies in not teaching and enforcing the correctuseage of the internet in education, not in training kids to use it properly. We have computers at home but our kids use library computers for some of their research because the library has database subscriptions. Small town, small library, fingertip access to the same quality and volume of information that big city kids working in large city libraries have. It's a great equalizer.

The argument that not using online data for research is best because the internet can be misused reminds me of that news item last year about the UK docs who were calling for the ban of kitchen knives because people occasionally use them to stab someone.
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Shammy
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Middle Aged Carp
I agree with that Quirt and Sue. Its hard as a parent not to protect your children from everything. Sometimes, I let them make a decision I know they will learn from later to give them practice. As my sister and I say.... Those of us that fail to learn from wisdom will learn from adversity.
I'd rather fall into chocolate.
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Newpianoplayer
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Gosh! Is there an "Intro to IT for Parents" course so parents can keep on top of what their kids can get in to. Not every parent will have the knowledge and resourses to monitor their kids internet activity. What about Internet Cafe's. They do not have restrictions on what their clients can have access to.
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