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South Dakota to ban abortions?; ...the perfect law.
Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 07:56 AM (4,187 Views)
Moonbat
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Either ALL live is sacred--or we just define life as we see legally fit.

*snip*

What "life" is, is a matter of a simple definition in a rule book--nothing more.


We hope that the terrible war innacted against bacteria by the nazi secular doctors that blight our world soon ends and as a species we learn to appreciate that these precious life forms are truly as sacred as all other life. The slaughter must stop.

- Message from the "Save the bacteria" foundation.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 02:36 AM
John D'Oh
Jan 23 2006, 11:45 AM
I object strongly to being called a baby murderer.

John, you keep drumming this up as if anyone (at least here) has called you a baby murderer. Are you an abortionist? If not, then I don't see why anyone would have any grounds for calling you a baby murderer.

I should probably start using another cliche. My comment was just a roundabout way of complaining about the extreme hyperbole which almost without fail, gets used in this debate.

Words such as 'Nazi', 'holocaust', 'murder', 'infanticide' are not exactly conducive to rational debate.

I'm also pretty sick of certain elements in the media accusing liberals of being 'obsessed' with abortion, as though it's this evil practice we all delight in on a Saturday night. I've seen more than one article recently where this claim of liberal obsession was made, followed by a multiple-page rant of mouth-frothing proportions about the evils of the practice, which would indicate, to me at least, that the obsession may lie elsewhere.

To be honest, before coming to the US, far from being obsessed, I didn't really think about the issue much at all. Now, you may consider this to be symptomatic of the European 'culture of death', which itself is hyperbole, but I don't agree, and as a 'typical' middle class married man with 2.4 kids, I really don't think the term applies to me.

I also noticed that a number of people use the Pope as the arbiter of all things good, when it suits them, regarding this issue. I recently posted some remarks that JP2 made regarding his opinions on the Iraq war, which were pretty much dismissed out of hand as extreme pacifism. Odd that, I thought.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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apple
Jan 24 2006, 12:20 AM
is it just about the vilest, grossest, inhumane, diabolic thing we do as humans? To tell you the truth i view cannibalism (of the already naturally dead of course) as a more acceptable behavior..

I think dropping bombs on children is considerably worse. You can argue that we're not aiming for them, but before anybody wages a war, they know that innocents will die, so whether it's done on purpose becomes irrelevant.

I would say that the level of actual pain and suffering caused by some stray napalm is considerably higher than anything achieved by a surgeon in America today.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
John D'Oh wrote:

"Words such as 'Nazi', 'holocaust', 'murder', 'infanticide' are not exactly conducive to rational debate."
Exactly, that's why I referenced Star Trek instead to counter the other hyperbolic cliché about the "all life is secret" nonsense... well, I suppose I could have brought in the "every sperm is sacred" reference so its more easily understood.
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kathyk
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To sum it up, it's Conversational Terrorism 101.

Conversational Terrorism

Not included therein, but of even more relevance is the basic rule in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Anyone remember the term for that?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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John D'Oh
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kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 09:18 AM
To sum it up, it's Conversational Terrorism 101.

Conversational Terrorism

Not included therein, but of even more relevance is the basic rule in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Anyone remember the term for that?

It's known as Godwin's Law, and a very good law it is, except in discussions of WWII when it becomes a bit cumbersome.

Godwin's Law
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kathyk
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 10:09 PM
kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 04:57 PM
As I said, I can only surmise.  But, unlike Jolly, I do take stock in statistics.  Sure, they can be skewed, but I have no reason to doubt the veracity of those I posted here.  They're taken from a survey site that looks to be without an agenda - not a political site .   And, the question was clear enough: "On abortion are you pro-life or pro-choice?"  Of the 582 SDs polled, 49% said the former, 47% said the latter, and 5% were undecided.

i used to work in politics, and i know how polls are really conducted. when the questions are being asked, the group paying for the poll and conducting the poll do not necessary reveal their true identity. the website such a poll is published on might also lack true identification, details, etc.

the questions are sometimes loaded with a preference for a particular outcome and use introductory language that is not objective. i worked on polls just like that.

btw, that site did not have the question in quotes. i can only assume the statement to be a summary of what was asked, not specifics.

you can get a sense of the veracity of a poll if its publication includes some or most of these:
who paid for the poll
who conducted the poll
how were the questions worded
how were the questions introduced and explained
who were the persons polled (i.e., how were they selected)
what was the size of the sample
on what dates was the poll conducted

is it responsible to grab a random poll off the internet and cite it because it shows the results you like, without checking on those relevant questions?

Yes. I believe it's responsible when carrying on an informal conversation in an internet forum; I'm not using it for a thesis.

As I pointed out, the group responsible for the poll seems to be a broad-based polling group without any political agenda. For you to dismiss it out of hand because I can't give you detailed credentials is an obvious duck.

You have frequently touted how overwhelmingly anti-choice the citizens of SD are. I googled and cited the first (and only poll) I found. I'm sure there are more out there. I don't have the time or inclination to find them. If you do, I'd be interested to see your results.

Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 08:56 PM
I thought I told you to wait in truck. Quirt already answered my question.

Stop making yourself into a bigger fool than you already are.

If you think I pay any mind to what you tell me to do, you're more clueless than I thought. Your little adolscent vendetta is really making you out to be the fool here. So here - down to your level - I'm rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. Nanner, nanner, nanner!

kk, thinking His Mighty Crudeness is still PO'd because she called him Renny in the OCR.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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The 89th Key
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QuirtEvans
Jan 23 2006, 06:10 PM
Quote:
 
You know, even if Roberts and Ailito turn out to be the swing votes in this direction, I say, bring 'em on. All it will take are a few states to outlaw abortion, altogether, and you're going to see a massive rally toward abortion rights. I guarantee it, considering that over two-thirds of Americans favor abortion rights.


That's where I am, Kathy. Let them overrule Roe. Let a few states outlaw abortion. And wait for the backlash.

Fine with me too...but get a comfortable chair. ;)
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Jan 23 2006, 07:11 PM
The 89th Key
Jan 23 2006, 07:07 PM
Anyone else find it funny that when a woman's pregnant, people "can feel the baby kicking" but when it comes to abortion, those same people will just say the baby is nothing but cells...a "medical procedure"? :lol:

Gotta love the libs! :thumb:

89th, you don't feel the baby kicking in the first trimester.

Anyone find it funny that all the pro-lifers like bombing Arabs?

Yes, I LIKE bombing arabs. :rolleyes:

I DO like killing terrorists are killing innocent people. Yes.

If a baby every comes out strapped with TNT, then maybe I'll support abortion. ;)
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kathyk
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gryphon
Jan 23 2006, 11:44 PM
kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 06:29 PM
even if Roberts and Ailito turn out to be the swing votes in this direction

Why do you say this? They are not even swing votes in Roe v. Wade.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Of course they weren't swing votes for a case that was decided 30 years ago. What I'm getting at is that with these new appointments, the hopes of the pro-life lobby are up that theirs will be the decisive votes in overturning Roe.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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The 89th Key
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LWpianistin
Jan 23 2006, 09:05 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 08:58 AM
Moonbat
Jan 23 2006, 09:56 AM
Meanwhile in a saner part of the world:

Quote:
 

the High Court rejected a review of guidelines which state terminations do not need parents' consent and doctors should respect girls' confidentiality.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4636666.stm

that's because europe is losing its soul. it's denying the inherent value of life and giving into the culture of death.

and yet American fashion now worships Europe? Europe is sooo much better (in general).

You have GOT to be kidding.

Aqua is going to love your post! :lol: :lol:
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Jan 24 2006, 08:50 AM
apple
Jan 24 2006, 12:20 AM
is it just about the vilest, grossest, inhumane, diabolic thing we do as humans?    To tell you the truth i view cannibalism (of the already naturally dead of course) as a more acceptable behavior..

I think dropping bombs on children is considerably worse. You can argue that we're not aiming for them, but before anybody wages a war, they know that innocents will die, so whether it's done on purpose becomes irrelevant.

I would say that the level of actual pain and suffering caused by some stray napalm is considerably higher than anything achieved by a surgeon in America today.

John,

2,100 American Soldiers have died in the last 26,000 hours.
The SAME number of babies were aborted in the last 12 hours.
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 12:09 AM
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 10:01 PM
TomK: the reference to Himmler and company in your post was totally unnecessary. You possess sufficent grey matter in your brain to have explained your point without  repeating that same anti-semitic bitterness you have shown the past year.

Go back to being shunned and while you're at it, take KathyK with you as she has shown herself to be equally as anti-semitic in past.

Not invalid at all, and not anti semitic. In fact, he is arguing that just as the Jews are human beings, the embryo is. And that the same arbitrary standard of determining who lives and who dies applies in both cases. It seems a fair analogy, and the umbrage taken at it is misplaced.

No my admonition is not in the least misplaced. TomK's question as to the arbitrariness of the decision whether or not a fetus is aborted is a good one and he knows it. The reference to the Nazis meant to substantiate the question however was crass and quite unnecessary. Moreover it was directed specifically against the Judaic (and Islamic for that matter) view that there are grey areas that can, in some cases, justifiably be taken into account when making the arbitrary decision.

To put it bluntly IT, ask yourself how Woytila or Ratzinger would have posed the same question? I think you yourself would not have asked it using the same crass reference. I doubt very much whether Woytila or Ratzinger would have either.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 06:33 AM
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 08:56 PM

Stop making yourself into a bigger fool than you already are.

If you think I pay any mind to what you tell me to do, you're more clueless than I thought. Your little adolscent vendetta is really making you out to be the fool here. So here - down to your level - I'm rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. Nanner, nanner, nanner!

kk, thinking His Mighty Crudeness is still PO'd because she called him Renny in the OCR.

Worth repeating. You know Kathy- you're probably right. I don't know why I am so angry with you. I'm sorry. I mean it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Moonbat
Jan 24 2006, 05:25 AM
Quote:
 

Either ALL live is sacred--or we just define life as we see legally fit.

*snip*

What "life" is, is a matter of a simple definition in a rule book--nothing more.


We hope that the terrible war innacted against bacteria by the nazi secular doctors that blight our world soon ends and as a species we learn to appreciate that these precious life forms are truly as sacred as all other life. The slaughter must stop.

- Message from the "Save the bacteria" foundation.

That argument has much more in common with a Singerian utilitarianism than a pro life argument against abortion. Earlier you attempted the crass and unsubtle characterization of the embryo as "bunches of cells" as if they were not particular types of cells that CAN ONLY BE human and constituitive of an complete and unique human being in a particular stage of development.

I am surprised by this, especially coming from a scientist such as yourself.

In fact, reading over your messages on this thread has definitely lowered my estimation your ability for scientific objectivity and rational discourse. That is a loss to me.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 07:24 AM
Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.

i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Rick Zimmer
Jan 23 2006, 07:00 PM
bachophile
Jan 23 2006, 04:57 PM
to sue..

where exactly? if u must know, its from the mishna, and involves the concept of rodef or pursuer.

the idea is, if something is threatning to your life, equivalent to someone chasing u to kill u, that pursuer can be stopped.

the idea is that the fetus does not have a black or white identity, human or not, ensouled or not. it is clearly alive and has clear importance.

yet at the same time, abortion is not "murder" in the classic sense, otherwise abortion should NEVER be permitted, because murder is never an allowable action.

and so, the jewish construct is a grey area, there is a very jewish notion that some things cannot be quantified into yes or no, black or white. rather, like an electrons spin, its actually sort of a cloud of potentiality, which can be seen in varying shades of grey. here is a small text resource, for more u can go to...

Jewish Attitudes Towards Abortion


Jewish doctrine on abortion: allowable, even required, when the life of the mother is at stake
Given that abortion does not equate to murder - in the case of threat to the mother's life, abortion becomes a requirement:

Damn you Jews!

Always thinking, thinking, thinking! Abnd making the rest of us look stupid!

If I didn't know any better, I would assume you people secretly run the world! :biggrin:

With all due respect to the rabbinic traditions and their understanding of morality based on long dismissed medical knowledge, it seems hardly "brilliant" or making anyone else look stupid to describe an embryo as "a third party pursuer after the mother with the intent to kill her."

There is no intent to do harm. There are no proportional grounds for killing. In order to take human life with impunity there must be just cause, there must be no chance to avoid the evil, and there must be a due proportion between the action and the consequences. The doctrine of double effect does not even play into this explanation.

If the the human being in utero is considered to be alive as Bach avers, then the distinction between the baby's head in the birth canal or in the atmosphere is not germane apart from a purely subjective and positivistic interpretation.

It is also a canard that "the idea is that the fetus does not have a black or white identity" or that it is only "actually sort of a cloud of potentiality". We know that the embryo by implantation is an entirely discrete individual who if left to develop according to the biochemical processes already contained in him or her will grow into a fully adult human being. The "potentiality" is only a potentiality to become a particular personality. Potentiality (from Lt "potens"= power) means the possessing a latent power or the capacity capable of development into activity -- it does mean not an indeterminate randomness as if it might equally possibly develop into a frog or a cow. It is only a human being and if left unmolested can only develop into an adult human being.

That Judaism does not recognize this in the light of modern embryology and fetology shows it to be quite benighted, not making any one else look stupid (though if you insist Rick, I will exclude you from that judgment). :wink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Jan 24 2006, 09:53 AM
John D'Oh
Jan 24 2006, 08:50 AM
apple
Jan 24 2006, 12:20 AM
is it just about the vilest, grossest, inhumane, diabolic thing we do as humans?    To tell you the truth i view cannibalism (of the already naturally dead of course) as a more acceptable behavior..

I think dropping bombs on children is considerably worse. You can argue that we're not aiming for them, but before anybody wages a war, they know that innocents will die, so whether it's done on purpose becomes irrelevant.

I would say that the level of actual pain and suffering caused by some stray napalm is considerably higher than anything achieved by a surgeon in America today.

John,

2,100 American Soldiers have died in the last 26,000 hours.
The SAME number of babies were aborted in the last 12 hours.

I wasn't talking about the Iraq war and I wasn't talking about American soldiers. I also wasn't talking about the numbers. I was talking about the amount of pain and suffering caused by war as being a greater evil than that of abortion.

Which is worse - aborting a 12 week old fetus, or dropping napalm on an 8 year old child?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Jan 24 2006, 07:00 AM
I suppose I could have brought in the "every sperm is sacred" reference so its more easily understood.

That as well is a pretty dull argument. If you think oft-repeated Pythonesque satire which distorts the argument is any more a clever or substantial contribution to these discussions, I would beg to differ.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Jan 24 2006, 07:23 AM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 09:18 AM
To sum it up, it's Conversational Terrorism 101.

Conversational Terrorism

Not included therein, but of even more relevance is the basic rule in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.  Anyone remember the term for that?

It's known as Godwin's Law, and a very good law it is, except in discussions of WWII when it becomes a bit cumbersome.

Godwin's Law

It is also a fallacy, since there the exclusion of an analogical predicate because of it historical contigency or political import is not itself reasonable. All that can be said is that it must be used more carefully and circumspectly.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
That Judaism does not recognize this in the light of modern embryology and fetology shows it to be quite benighted


Benighted: lacking enlightenment or knowledge or culture; "this benighted country"; "benighted ages of barbarism and superstition"; "the dark ages"; "a dark age in the history of education"


need i say anything more?

i leave it up to you dear readers to determine who live in light and who live in the darkness.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Jan 24 2006, 08:02 AM
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 12:09 AM
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 10:01 PM
TomK: the reference to Himmler and company in your post was totally unnecessary. You possess sufficent grey matter in your brain to have explained your point without  repeating that same anti-semitic bitterness you have shown the past year.

Go back to being shunned and while you're at it, take KathyK with you as she has shown herself to be equally as anti-semitic in past.

Not invalid at all, and not anti semitic. In fact, he is arguing that just as the Jews are human beings, the embryo is. And that the same arbitrary standard of determining who lives and who dies applies in both cases. It seems a fair analogy, and the umbrage taken at it is misplaced.

No my admonition is not in the least misplaced. TomK's question as to the arbitrariness of the decision whether or not a fetus is aborted is a good one and he knows it. The reference to the Nazis meant to substantiate the question however was crass and quite unnecessary. Moreover it was directed specifically against the Judaic (and Islamic for that matter) view that there are grey areas that can, in some cases, justifiably be taken into account when making the arbitrary decision.

To put it bluntly IT, ask yourself how Woytila or Ratzinger would have posed the same question? I think you yourself would not have asked it using the same crass reference. I doubt very much whether Woytila or Ratzinger would have either.

Fortunately for us all the level of discourse in diplomatic circles and papal encyclicals is more subtle and gentle.

There is an aggressive attempt to disallow the nazi - abortion analogy in conversation. It is a direct analogy of terms and very instructive. It is also profoundly discomforting for the legal positivists since their position (per Hans Kelsen) exculpates Hitler on the same terms that abortion is exculpated as a non moral issue -- by simple force of law promulgated by a duly elected government.

Arbitrary decisions are fine for choosing what to eat and wear, not for determining who lives and dies.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 07:58 AM

It is also a fallacy, since there the exclusion of an analogical predicate because of it historical contigency or political import is not itself reasonable. All that can be said is that it must be used more carefully and circumspectly.

Is this a joke?
Do you know regular words too?
You sound ridiculous.

Almost like you think fancier words help win an argument.

Sorry, I try to hold my tongue about this, but this one was a real doosie!

You could write for Dilbert.
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jan 24 2006, 09:08 AM
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 07:58 AM

It is also a fallacy, since there the exclusion of an analogical predicate because of it historical contigency or political import is not itself reasonable. All that can be said is that it must be used more carefully and circumspectly.

Is this a joke?
Do you know regular words too?
You sound ridiculous.

Almost like you think fancier words help win an argument.

Sorry, I try to hold my tongue about this, but this one was a real doosie!

You could write for Dilbert.

kenny, if you heard him say it in a certain tone, i bet you would like it. :wink:
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