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| South Dakota to ban abortions?; ...the perfect law. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 07:56 AM (4,187 Views) | |
| Moonbat | Jan 24 2006, 04:25 AM Post #151 |
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Pisa-Carp
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We hope that the terrible war innacted against bacteria by the nazi secular doctors that blight our world soon ends and as a species we learn to appreciate that these precious life forms are truly as sacred as all other life. The slaughter must stop. - Message from the "Save the bacteria" foundation. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 24 2006, 05:44 AM Post #152 |
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MAMIL
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I should probably start using another cliche. My comment was just a roundabout way of complaining about the extreme hyperbole which almost without fail, gets used in this debate. Words such as 'Nazi', 'holocaust', 'murder', 'infanticide' are not exactly conducive to rational debate. I'm also pretty sick of certain elements in the media accusing liberals of being 'obsessed' with abortion, as though it's this evil practice we all delight in on a Saturday night. I've seen more than one article recently where this claim of liberal obsession was made, followed by a multiple-page rant of mouth-frothing proportions about the evils of the practice, which would indicate, to me at least, that the obsession may lie elsewhere. To be honest, before coming to the US, far from being obsessed, I didn't really think about the issue much at all. Now, you may consider this to be symptomatic of the European 'culture of death', which itself is hyperbole, but I don't agree, and as a 'typical' middle class married man with 2.4 kids, I really don't think the term applies to me. I also noticed that a number of people use the Pope as the arbiter of all things good, when it suits them, regarding this issue. I recently posted some remarks that JP2 made regarding his opinions on the Iraq war, which were pretty much dismissed out of hand as extreme pacifism. Odd that, I thought. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 24 2006, 05:50 AM Post #153 |
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MAMIL
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I think dropping bombs on children is considerably worse. You can argue that we're not aiming for them, but before anybody wages a war, they know that innocents will die, so whether it's done on purpose becomes irrelevant. I would say that the level of actual pain and suffering caused by some stray napalm is considerably higher than anything achieved by a surgeon in America today. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Axtremus | Jan 24 2006, 06:00 AM Post #154 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Exactly, that's why I referenced Star Trek instead to counter the other hyperbolic cliché about the "all life is secret" nonsense... well, I suppose I could have brought in the "every sperm is sacred" reference so its more easily understood. |
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| kathyk | Jan 24 2006, 06:18 AM Post #155 |
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Pisa-Carp
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To sum it up, it's Conversational Terrorism 101. Conversational Terrorism Not included therein, but of even more relevance is the basic rule in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Anyone remember the term for that? |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 24 2006, 06:23 AM Post #156 |
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MAMIL
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It's known as Godwin's Law, and a very good law it is, except in discussions of WWII when it becomes a bit cumbersome. Godwin's Law |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| kathyk | Jan 24 2006, 06:24 AM Post #157 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Yes. I believe it's responsible when carrying on an informal conversation in an internet forum; I'm not using it for a thesis. As I pointed out, the group responsible for the poll seems to be a broad-based polling group without any political agenda. For you to dismiss it out of hand because I can't give you detailed credentials is an obvious duck. You have frequently touted how overwhelmingly anti-choice the citizens of SD are. I googled and cited the first (and only poll) I found. I'm sure there are more out there. I don't have the time or inclination to find them. If you do, I'd be interested to see your results. Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Jan 24 2006, 06:33 AM Post #158 |
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Pisa-Carp
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If you think I pay any mind to what you tell me to do, you're more clueless than I thought. Your little adolscent vendetta is really making you out to be the fool here. So here - down to your level - I'm rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. Nanner, nanner, nanner! kk, thinking His Mighty Crudeness is still PO'd because she called him Renny in the OCR. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| The 89th Key | Jan 24 2006, 06:42 AM Post #159 |
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Fine with me too...but get a comfortable chair.
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| The 89th Key | Jan 24 2006, 06:44 AM Post #160 |
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Yes, I LIKE bombing arabs. :rolleyes: I DO like killing terrorists are killing innocent people. Yes. If a baby every comes out strapped with TNT, then maybe I'll support abortion.
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| kathyk | Jan 24 2006, 06:45 AM Post #161 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. Of course they weren't swing votes for a case that was decided 30 years ago. What I'm getting at is that with these new appointments, the hopes of the pro-life lobby are up that theirs will be the decisive votes in overturning Roe. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| The 89th Key | Jan 24 2006, 06:46 AM Post #162 |
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You have GOT to be kidding. Aqua is going to love your post! :lol: :lol: |
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| The 89th Key | Jan 24 2006, 06:53 AM Post #163 |
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John, 2,100 American Soldiers have died in the last 26,000 hours. The SAME number of babies were aborted in the last 12 hours. |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jan 24 2006, 07:02 AM Post #164 |
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Bull-Carp
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No my admonition is not in the least misplaced. TomK's question as to the arbitrariness of the decision whether or not a fetus is aborted is a good one and he knows it. The reference to the Nazis meant to substantiate the question however was crass and quite unnecessary. Moreover it was directed specifically against the Judaic (and Islamic for that matter) view that there are grey areas that can, in some cases, justifiably be taken into account when making the arbitrary decision. To put it bluntly IT, ask yourself how Woytila or Ratzinger would have posed the same question? I think you yourself would not have asked it using the same crass reference. I doubt very much whether Woytila or Ratzinger would have either. |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jan 24 2006, 07:05 AM Post #165 |
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Bull-Carp
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Worth repeating. You know Kathy- you're probably right. I don't know why I am so angry with you. I'm sorry. I mean it. |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 24 2006, 07:16 AM Post #166 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That argument has much more in common with a Singerian utilitarianism than a pro life argument against abortion. Earlier you attempted the crass and unsubtle characterization of the embryo as "bunches of cells" as if they were not particular types of cells that CAN ONLY BE human and constituitive of an complete and unique human being in a particular stage of development. I am surprised by this, especially coming from a scientist such as yourself. In fact, reading over your messages on this thread has definitely lowered my estimation your ability for scientific objectivity and rational discourse. That is a loss to me. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| musicasacra | Jan 24 2006, 07:18 AM Post #167 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it. |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 24 2006, 07:46 AM Post #168 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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With all due respect to the rabbinic traditions and their understanding of morality based on long dismissed medical knowledge, it seems hardly "brilliant" or making anyone else look stupid to describe an embryo as "a third party pursuer after the mother with the intent to kill her." There is no intent to do harm. There are no proportional grounds for killing. In order to take human life with impunity there must be just cause, there must be no chance to avoid the evil, and there must be a due proportion between the action and the consequences. The doctrine of double effect does not even play into this explanation. If the the human being in utero is considered to be alive as Bach avers, then the distinction between the baby's head in the birth canal or in the atmosphere is not germane apart from a purely subjective and positivistic interpretation. It is also a canard that "the idea is that the fetus does not have a black or white identity" or that it is only "actually sort of a cloud of potentiality". We know that the embryo by implantation is an entirely discrete individual who if left to develop according to the biochemical processes already contained in him or her will grow into a fully adult human being. The "potentiality" is only a potentiality to become a particular personality. Potentiality (from Lt "potens"= power) means the possessing a latent power or the capacity capable of development into activity -- it does mean not an indeterminate randomness as if it might equally possibly develop into a frog or a cow. It is only a human being and if left unmolested can only develop into an adult human being. That Judaism does not recognize this in the light of modern embryology and fetology shows it to be quite benighted, not making any one else look stupid (though if you insist Rick, I will exclude you from that judgment).
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 24 2006, 07:48 AM Post #169 |
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MAMIL
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I wasn't talking about the Iraq war and I wasn't talking about American soldiers. I also wasn't talking about the numbers. I was talking about the amount of pain and suffering caused by war as being a greater evil than that of abortion. Which is worse - aborting a 12 week old fetus, or dropping napalm on an 8 year old child? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 24 2006, 07:54 AM Post #170 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That as well is a pretty dull argument. If you think oft-repeated Pythonesque satire which distorts the argument is any more a clever or substantial contribution to these discussions, I would beg to differ. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 24 2006, 07:58 AM Post #171 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It is also a fallacy, since there the exclusion of an analogical predicate because of it historical contigency or political import is not itself reasonable. All that can be said is that it must be used more carefully and circumspectly. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| bachophile | Jan 24 2006, 08:05 AM Post #172 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Benighted: lacking enlightenment or knowledge or culture; "this benighted country"; "benighted ages of barbarism and superstition"; "the dark ages"; "a dark age in the history of education" need i say anything more? i leave it up to you dear readers to determine who live in light and who live in the darkness. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 24 2006, 08:06 AM Post #173 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Fortunately for us all the level of discourse in diplomatic circles and papal encyclicals is more subtle and gentle. There is an aggressive attempt to disallow the nazi - abortion analogy in conversation. It is a direct analogy of terms and very instructive. It is also profoundly discomforting for the legal positivists since their position (per Hans Kelsen) exculpates Hitler on the same terms that abortion is exculpated as a non moral issue -- by simple force of law promulgated by a duly elected government. Arbitrary decisions are fine for choosing what to eat and wear, not for determining who lives and dies. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kenny | Jan 24 2006, 08:08 AM Post #174 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Is this a joke? Do you know regular words too? You sound ridiculous. Almost like you think fancier words help win an argument. Sorry, I try to hold my tongue about this, but this one was a real doosie! You could write for Dilbert. |
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| musicasacra | Jan 24 2006, 08:10 AM Post #175 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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kenny, if you heard him say it in a certain tone, i bet you would like it.
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