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South Dakota to ban abortions?; ...the perfect law.
Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 07:56 AM (4,189 Views)
musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 04:07 PM
I see. Kinda like muncipalities and communities declaring their area a nuclear free zone back in 70's and 80's.

hey, don't go comparing south dakota to berkeley!
:lol:
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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You know, even if Roberts and Ailito turn out to be the swing votes in this direction, I say, bring 'em on. All it will take are a few states to outlaw abortion, altogether, and you're going to see a massive rally toward abortion rights. I guarantee it, considering that over two-thirds of Americans favor abortion rights.


That's where I am, Kathy. Let them overrule Roe. Let a few states outlaw abortion. And wait for the backlash.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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AlbertaCrude
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bachophile
Jan 23 2006, 03:06 PM


well, if u need translations from the hebrew, ill let u know.

as for your question, i heard canada will extradite all S.D. felons.



Thanks but I found it already in translation. Strangely enough the Islamic view is almost identical. And the Eastern Orthodox, while very uneasy about it, defers to the Judaic view and leaves the ultimate decision to the parents of the unborn in consultation with their pastoral father (priest) and without deprivation of the sacraments of the Church.

Yes, although we have shortage of labour here, we are fussy.
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kathyk
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 03:05 PM
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 04:02 PM
Sincere question. If S.D. has a law prohibiting abortions can a resident still leave the state and have one performed elsewhere  then return without the possibility of prosecution?

i don't believe that's part of the bill being proposed.

i think the point is to make south dakota a pro-life state. the way south dakotans deal with something that is not accepted by communities is to quietly work at legislation to address it.

Well, the question seems pretty straight forward to me: On abortion are you pro-life or pro-choice. Here's the poll I was citing.

Poll


As to why there's only one abortion clinic in SD, I can only guess, but a couple of possibilities: It's such a small state, there's no need for more than one 2) the pro-life advocates are a violent, scary and down-right intimidating bunch with big guns.

As to AC's question whether making something that one does legally in another state a crime for a citizen of another state would fly squarely in the face of states' sovereignty. You want to see another civil war in the US? Try pulling that one off.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 04:29 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 03:05 PM
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 04:02 PM
Sincere question. If S.D. has a law prohibiting abortions can a resident still leave the state and have one performed elsewhere  then return without the possibility of prosecution?

i don't believe that's part of the bill being proposed.

i think the point is to make south dakota a pro-life state. the way south dakotans deal with something that is not accepted by communities is to quietly work at legislation to address it.

Well, the question seems pretty straight forward to me: On abortion are you pro-life or pro-choice. Here's the poll I was citing.

Poll


As to why there's only one abortion clinic in SD, I can only guess, but a couple of possibilities: It's such a small state, there's no need for more than one 2) the pro-life advocates are a violent, scary and down-right intimidating bunch with big guns.

people in south dakota are not violent and scary.

the abortion clinic in SD does not get violent or nasty protests. that would be considered uncivilized by such a quiet people.

that poll link didn't provide info on who conducted the poll, what questions were asked, how the questions were asked and explained by the phone pollers, who paid for the poll, etc. those are all relevant questions when examing poll results.

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kathyk
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Click on the link for SD and you will see the question and a lot of other data. I don't vouche for the poll - I just googled it. Find another.

I didn't say people in SD are violent and scary - I said the pro-life advocates. Again, I have no idea - I'm only guessing, here. But, I do know that there has been horrible violence perpetrated against abortion clinics, their staff and patrons by so-called right to lifers. I can only imagine that if there's a paucity of clinics in SD, that this might be a factor.
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musicasacra
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kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 04:34 PM
Click on the link for SD and you will see the question and a lot of other data. I don't vouche for the poll - I just googled it. Find another.

the site doesn't answer the questions i raised.

i'm off to MBA class. then to pick up steve at the airport. :wub:
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AlbertaCrude
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kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 03:29 PM
As to AC's question whether making something that one does legally in another state a crime for a citizen of another state would fly squarely in the face of states' sovereignty.

No that wasn't my question. My question was whether a resident of SD went to another state and had an abortion then returned home. Would that SD resident be liable for prosecution on SD law for having procured an abortion?

Musicascra answered it and without the hubbub and hysteria you, as usual, impute into what people write. Please read carefully- you'll get barked at and barked at less.
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kathyk
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And that was the question I answered, Mr. Smarty Pants. You can't charge someone in your own state of a crime for something they did legally in another state. Simple enough for you? (you must really want to win that poll :wacko: )
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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musicasacra
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kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 04:34 PM
But, I do no that there has been horrible violence perpetrated against abortion clinics, their staff and patrons by so-called right to lifers. I can only imagine that if there's a paucity of clinics in SD, that this is a factor.

no it isn't a factor. like i said, violent behavior in south dakota would not be tolerated. they are a quiet people. they use legislation.

what is a factor: it's a pro-life state. abortion is not accepted by the communities. if patients know their doctor performs abortions, the patients switch doctors. doctors know they can't have a successful practice in south dakota and perform abortions.

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QuirtEvans
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AC -- I think it would be possible (even though Kathy appears to disagree) for a state like South Dakota to prohibit its residents from crossing state lines to procure an abortion.

What they could NOT do is prohibit a South Dakota resident from moving to another state. That's a constitutional prohibition. So, to get the abortion, you might have to relocate.

Moreover, if you're in the first trimester, and assuming you know about the South Dakota law, hopefully you wouldn't be dumb enough to tell anyone that you're pregnant. You use a home pregnancy test, take an unscheduled vacation to Minnesota, and come home.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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kathyk
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 03:43 PM

no it isn't a factor.  like i said, violent behavior in south dakota would not be tolerated.  they are a quiet people.  they use legislation. 


It must be nice to live in a state with no violent crime.

Quirt, it's been awhile (quite awhile) since I studied constitutional law, and I'm not exactly sure on which article or amendment to pin it, but I do believe that you can't prosecute someone in your own state for a crime committed outside your state; even if it's a crime in the other state. It's the other state's perogative whether to prosecute or not, and they'd have to extradite you to get you back in that state to pursue it.
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musicasacra
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kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 04:48 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 03:43 PM

no it isn't a factor.  like i said, violent behavior in south dakota would not be tolerated.  they are a quiet people.  they use legislation. 


It must be nice to live in a state with no violent crime

do you remember the thread a while ago regarding south dakota's one abortion clinic? here's an excerpt from that washington post article and a link to the entire article:

Quote:
 
When the Planned Parenthood clinic was built six years ago, architects factored in the hostility that clinics faced. It has no windows in the front of the building, so abortion protesters cannot look in, and the parking lot is in the back, on private property safe from picketers. The glass in the encased reception area is bulletproof. Doors are kept locked, and visitors must present identification to be buzzed inside.

But the loud protests anticipated in the building design have not materialized. Instead, abortion opponents have attempted to get laws passed restricting both abortion providers and those seeking the abortions.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...22600747_2.html

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kathyk
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As I said, I can only surmise. But, unlike Jolly, I do take stock in statistics. Sure, they can be skewed, but I have no reason to doubt the veracity of those I posted here. They're taken from a survey site that looks to be without an agenda - not a political site . And, the question was clear enough: "On abortion are you pro-life or pro-choice?" Of the 582 SDs polled, 49% said the former, 47% said the latter, and 5% were undecided.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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The 89th Key
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Anyone else find it funny that when a woman's pregnant, people "can feel the baby kicking" but when it comes to abortion, those same people will just say the baby is nothing but cells...a "medical procedure"? :lol:

Gotta love the libs! :thumb:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Jan 23 2006, 07:07 PM
Anyone else find it funny that when a woman's pregnant, people "can feel the baby kicking" but when it comes to abortion, those same people will just say the baby is nothing but cells...a "medical procedure"? :lol:

Gotta love the libs! :thumb:

89th, you don't feel the baby kicking in the first trimester.

Anyone find it funny that all the pro-lifers like bombing Arabs?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
Abortion is MURDER, and I'll KILL the sonofabitch that disagrees with me!
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 03:23 PM
bachophile
Jan 23 2006, 03:06 PM


well, if u need translations from the hebrew, ill let u know.

as for your question, i heard canada will extradite all S.D. felons.



Thanks but I found it already in translation. Strangely enough the Islamic view is almost identical. And the Eastern Orthodox, while very uneasy about it, defers to the Judaic view and leaves the ultimate decision to the parents of the unborn in consultation with their pastoral father (priest) and without deprivation of the sacraments of the Church.

Yes, although we have shortage of labour here, we are fussy.

Can you help me out and tell exactly where this is from? My knowledge of religion is pretty limited, I'm afraid. But this quote was refreshing, acknowledging a 'grey area' as bach said.
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Rick Zimmer
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AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 10:59 AM
From the CNN link:
 
"(There is) an anti-culture demonstrated by the flight to drugs, by the flight from reality, by illusions, by false happiness ... displayed in sexuality which has become pure pleasure devoid of responsibility," he added.

Benedict did not spell out what he meant by a "culture of death", but the phrase was a rallying cry of his predecessor John Paul who regularly used the term to define abortion and artificial birth control.

With Michelangelo's dramatic depiction of the Last Judgment as a backdrop, Benedict attacked the "thing-infliction of mankind", suggesting that people had become little more than objects to be traded, picked up and discarded at will.

He singled out ancient Rome's Colosseum amphitheatre and the gardens of the emperor Nero, where Christians were once martyred, as a "real perversion of joy and a perversion of the sense of life."

"The anti-culture of death was a love of lies and of deceit. It was an abuse of the body as a commodity and as a product. Even in our times there is this culture and we must say 'No' to it," he said."


From the Bishop or Rome this is not only a reasonable view but it is his duty as one of the many spiritual leaders in the world to convey.

I read Benedict's words as an indictment of the crass materialism and consumerism that pervades the modern world. The sexuality and abortion aspects are but symptoms of a global societal decay that consciously assigns material and economic cost and value to everything. As a result, human dignity itself has become a negotiable commodity.

As well, I sense a certain lamentation in his words that in the Western world, while we have emancipated ourselves through the development of open democratic societies, we have become drunk with selfish personal greed for material and hedonistic pleasures at the expense of dignity. That is culture of death to which he refers- the death of the human spirit and dignity. It is not physical death but rather the spiritual desecration of humanity and the world in which we live.

The question we need to ask ourselves is how can we allow human dignity to be continually put on the auction block so that becomes increasingly a commodity for material gain? As indivuals we can simply say "no" and walk away as Benedict has said. As open secular societies and nations saying "no" is not quite so easy, not without radically altering the constitutional foundation upon which a free and open society is based and upon which it identifies itself.

I think you are pretty close to what he is talking about, AC as well as what John Paul II was talking about.

It tended to be the popular media who picked this up and made it sound as if it was all intended primarily as an attack on abortion. While this was part of it, John Paul II as well as Benedict are speaking of something much more fundamental -- the loss of dignity of the individual human being in a modern capitalistic society which seems to place a $ value on everything and where human beings are seen as simply a cog in the wheel of production or a consumer of what is produced.

I think, however, both of them are missing some of what I believe to be hopeful signs. Perhaps it is their age and a certain nostalgia for old time values. But I see much that I think is hopeful.

I see the changing choice of women for how they will live their life, now that extreme feminism is dying down, as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the teaching of children to think rather than just memorize as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the increasing tolerance of cultures and religions and non-religious belief systems as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the movement towards equality for gay men and for lesbians as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the increasing sense of spirituality within the Western World as a sign of increasing human dignity.

I see the overthrow and rejection of authoritarian communism in most of the world to be as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the massive explosion of free speech and the free flow of information from the bottom up, rather than the top down that the Internet is bringing us as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the condemnation of war by most of the industrialized society as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the movement away from ant-semiticism within the Christian world as a sign of increasing human dignity.

I see the willingness and ability of the average individual to challenge authority as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the massive advances being made by science to free us of sickness and disease -- and the growing movement in the world to extend these benefits to even the poorest of nations as a sign of increasing human dignityl I see the growth of both faith-based and secular international societies, with averagge men and women giving up their lives to work among the poorest of the poor to fight poverty and destitution in the third world as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the internationalization of space and the recognition that we are one world as a sign of increasing human dignity. I see the move towards being good custodians of the earth rather than exploiters of natural resources as a sign of increasing human dignity.

Overall I think the world is moving to a better place. Slowly, incrementally, as it always has done. But I expect the world 100 years form now will be as much better a place from today as today is from 1906.

There is much to be concerned about and I think John Paul II and Benedict have hit upon what needs to be our most basic concern as a society -- the loss of human dignity within the economic market place. But if all we do is focus on the problem and fail to see the immense movement towards good in this world, we are not seeing the entire picture.



[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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M&M's
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Optimistic
Jan 23 2006, 01:15 PM
The 89th Key
Jan 23 2006, 04:08 PM
Opt,

Quote:
 
However, I cannot see trying to convince a mother who does not believe in God that she must risk her life because it what He thinks is best. What if she has other children at home? I doubt that she would see dying and leaving behind a family for her husband to take care of as "what is best."


I see what you're saying, and I think most pro-lifers around here including me support the right to an abortion if it threatens the mothers life. Hence laws coming out criminalizing abortions except to save the life of the mother. Would you hold that position?

Yes. I was just trying to point out that, although I personally would not abort were my life at risk, I can't see forcing that same rationale on a non-believer. I myself am absolutely against abortion. For society, not as much.

Opt:

Why do you think abortion is wrong for yourself?
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
to sue..

where exactly? if u must know, its from the mishna, and involves the concept of rodef or pursuer.

the idea is, if something is threatning to your life, equivalent to someone chasing u to kill u, that pursuer can be stopped.

the idea is that the fetus does not have a black or white identity, human or not, ensouled or not. it is clearly alive and has clear importance.

yet at the same time, abortion is not "murder" in the classic sense, otherwise abortion should NEVER be permitted, because murder is never an allowable action.

and so, the jewish construct is a grey area, there is a very jewish notion that some things cannot be quantified into yes or no, black or white. rather, like an electrons spin, its actually sort of a cloud of potentiality, which can be seen in varying shades of grey. here is a small text resource, for more u can go to...

Jewish Attitudes Towards Abortion


Jewish doctrine on abortion: allowable, even required, when the life of the mother is at stake
Given that abortion does not equate to murder - in the case of threat to the mother's life, abortion becomes a requirement:
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Rick Zimmer
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kathyk
Jan 23 2006, 02:29 PM
I guess they must be gearing up for appeals, then, because it is against federal law to ban abortions prior to the 3rd trimester. Or, maybe they're banking on Roberts and Ailito tipping the scales on Roe v. Wade.

Actually, whether this is what South Dakota is doing or not, I don't know, Kathy. But it likely may be.

There is a movement in several states to adopt legislation with the sole purpose of being sued and getting the matter back to the Supreme Court NOT to argue if this restriction or that one is acceptable, but to force the Court to reconsider the basics of Roe V Wade.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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AlbertaCrude
Jan 23 2006, 03:02 PM
Sincere question. If S.D. has a law prohibiting abortions can a resident still leave the state and have one performed elsewhere  then return without the possibility of prosecution?

Yes, one is subject to the laws of the state in which one does something.

As an example, the moment I leave California and go to Nevada, I am subject to Nevada laws for what I do there, not California laws.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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AlbertaCrude
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QuirtEvans
Jan 23 2006, 03:45 PM
AC -- I think it would be possible (even though Kathy appears to disagree) for a state like South Dakota to prohibit its residents from crossing state lines to procure an abortion.

What they could NOT do is prohibit a South Dakota resident from moving to another state.  That's a constitutional prohibition.  So, to get the abortion, you might have to relocate.

Moreover, if you're in the first trimester, and assuming you know about the South Dakota law, hopefully you wouldn't be dumb enough to tell anyone that you're pregnant.  You use a home pregnancy test, take an unscheduled vacation to Minnesota, and come home.

Thank you QuirtEvans. That's all what I wanted to know.

Kathy K for Kollontai wrote
 
And that was the question I answered, Mr. Smarty Pants. You can't charge someone in your own state of a crime for something they did legally in another state. Simple enough for you? (you must really want to win that poll. :wacko:


Read QuirtEvans' response above. It was directed to my question: "If S.D. has a law prohibiting abortions can a resident still leave the state and have one performed elsewhere then return without the possibility of prosecution?"

You answered:

"As to AC's question whether making something that one does legally in another state a crime for a citizen of another state would fly squarely in the face of states' sovereignty. You want to see another civil war in the US? Try pulling that one off."

As I said earlier that wasn't my question. I think you're a spinning idiot.
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QuirtEvans
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Quirt, it's been awhile (quite awhile) since I studied constitutional law, and I'm not exactly sure on which article or amendment to pin it, but I do believe that you can't prosecute someone in your own state for a crime committed outside your state; even if it's a crime in the other state. It's the other state's perogative whether to prosecute or not, and they'd have to extradite you to get you back in that state to pursue it.


It's been a while for me too, but I believe there's a difference between telling the people of South Dakota that they cannot evade South Dakota requirements by leaving the state to engage in activity that would be illegal in South Dakota, and trying to prosecute the conduct that occurred in the other state.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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