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South Dakota to ban abortions?; ...the perfect law.
Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 07:56 AM (4,191 Views)
Moonbat
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Don't think Jolly was talking about a "bunches of cells" Moonbat.

I think he meant that as the pregnancy progresses to some point.

What point that is, only Jolly can answer.

I say that when the central nervous system and brain have begun to develop, you have a human being.


Fair point though i would disagree with your latter statement: i would say that when the central nervous system and brain have begun to develop you have an organism with a developing nervous system and brain.

I'd agree that as soon as there is some conscious experience it is reasonable to grant ethical status, i would not agree that it is reasonable to grant _equal_ ethical status to our growing embryo/foetus (depending on where you consider the point where the first trappings of conscious experience emerge) as we do to an adult, or indeed young child.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Moonbat
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25 years ago, what was considered a waste of medical resources (young preemies), are routinely "saved" today.

So I guess what wasn't a baby 25 years ago, has suddenly become one?


Through medical or scientific definition perhaps, but that says nothing about ethics.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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John D'Oh
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 01:28 PM
Posted Image

I think that that's more a bumper sticker than a philosophical viewpoint. I'm not demanding that you have 1st trimester abortions, I just don't think that you, or Pope John Paul 2, or Pat Robertson have the right to demand that my loved ones follow your moral codes. I follow my own principles, and I object strongly to being called a baby murderer.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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sue
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 09:44 AM
no, check out the link i gave. i said that's a sign of europe losing its soul, its moral compass. the culture of death is about losing respect for human life -- abortions, contraception, etc.

The use of contraception is not losing respect for human life. It is preventing unwanted human life. It is preventing the need for abortions. Just how far back in the dark ages do you want to be?
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Mark
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How about "cell squasher" is that OK?

:lol:
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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AlbertaCrude
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From the CNN link:
 
"(There is) an anti-culture demonstrated by the flight to drugs, by the flight from reality, by illusions, by false happiness ... displayed in sexuality which has become pure pleasure devoid of responsibility," he added.

Benedict did not spell out what he meant by a "culture of death", but the phrase was a rallying cry of his predecessor John Paul who regularly used the term to define abortion and artificial birth control.

With Michelangelo's dramatic depiction of the Last Judgment as a backdrop, Benedict attacked the "thing-infliction of mankind", suggesting that people had become little more than objects to be traded, picked up and discarded at will.

He singled out ancient Rome's Colosseum amphitheatre and the gardens of the emperor Nero, where Christians were once martyred, as a "real perversion of joy and a perversion of the sense of life."

"The anti-culture of death was a love of lies and of deceit. It was an abuse of the body as a commodity and as a product. Even in our times there is this culture and we must say 'No' to it," he said."


From the Bishop or Rome this is not only a reasonable view but it is his duty as one of the many spiritual leaders in the world to convey.

I read Benedict's words as an indictment of the crass materialism and consumerism that pervades the modern world. The sexuality and abortion aspects are but symptoms of a global societal decay that consciously assigns material and economic cost and value to everything. As a result, human dignity itself has become a negotiable commodity.

As well, I sense a certain lamentation in his words that in the Western world, while we have emancipated ourselves through the development of open democratic societies, we have become drunk with selfish personal greed for material and hedonistic pleasures at the expense of dignity. That is culture of death to which he refers- the death of the human spirit and dignity. It is not physical death but rather the spiritual desecration of humanity and the world in which we live.

The question we need to ask ourselves is how can we allow human dignity to be continually put on the auction block so that becomes increasingly a commodity for material gain? As indivuals we can simply say "no" and walk away as Benedict has said. As open secular societies and nations saying "no" is not quite so easy, not without radically altering the constitutional foundation upon which a free and open society is based and upon which it identifies itself.
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John D'Oh
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sue
Jan 23 2006, 01:53 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 09:44 AM
no, check out the link i gave.  i said that's a sign of europe losing its soul, its moral compass.  the culture of death is about losing respect for human life -- abortions, contraception, etc.

The use of contraception is not losing respect for human life. It is preventing unwanted human life. It is preventing the need for abortions. Just how far back in the dark ages do you want to be?

Contraception having no respect for human life? Where on earth does that come from? I feel a Monty Python song coming on....

Since certain anti-gay marriage people like to talk about 'The Slippery Slope', is the move to outlaw abortion likely to lead to contraceptives and sex outside marriage becoming illegal?

I thank God that I'm an atheist.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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dolmansaxlil
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John D'Oh
Jan 23 2006, 02:59 PM
sue
Jan 23 2006, 01:53 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 09:44 AM
no, check out the link i gave.  i said that's a sign of europe losing its soul, its moral compass.  the culture of death is about losing respect for human life -- abortions, contraception, etc.

The use of contraception is not losing respect for human life. It is preventing unwanted human life. It is preventing the need for abortions. Just how far back in the dark ages do you want to be?

Contraception having no respect for human life? Where on earth does that come from? I feel a Monty Python song coming on....

I was already singing along, John!

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Mark
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:lol:
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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John D'Oh
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It's not the culture of death, Jim, it's worse than that, it's, it's,

(Loud brass band chord)

The Death of Culture.

Millions of innocent bottles of penicillin and amoxycillin are wasted everyday, under socialised healthcare systems in Canada and Europe. Bring back the Black Death! Save our Cultures!
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AlbertaCrude
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Jolly
Jan 23 2006, 10:19 AM

As a pregnancy progresses, the choice has been made, the die has been cast. If the baby is too much a burden on the young lady's life, she can do what young mothers have done in the past - let someone who wants the child adopt it.

I believe that to be reasonable. Flies in the face of the "me first" world (and I'm sure the social workers won't like it) but it is nonetheless reasonable.
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John D'Oh
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Jolly
Jan 23 2006, 01:19 PM

Probably not.

Backalley implies surgical intervention. In reality, those MDs who don't agree with the SD law will just prescribe a BCP cocktail, and nobody's going to beat them over the head for it. That pretty much takes care of the "I can't believe I got that drunk!' crowd.

Jolly, you seem to imply that you think it would be OK for a doctor to break the law. If that's the case, then it's a bad law.

I believe the debate regarding early and late term abortions should be separated. If people have religious convictions that lead them to believe that the morning after pill is the same as a 28 week termination then fine, but don't force me to believe the same.

And anybody who claims that because I use contraception within a monogamous relationship I have no respect for human life probably doesn't have two kids of their own, and we can't afford to have any more, thankyouverymuch. Celibate old men telling me how to control my sex life? Give me a break.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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I agree the contraception issue is speciously silly and shrill.
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musicasacra
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Mark
Jan 23 2006, 11:36 AM
Would you be willing to die to carry a baby to term?

if it came down to my life or the baby's, i would choose the baby's. i would not abort. St. Gianna Beretta Molla made the same decision.
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musicasacra
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sue
Jan 23 2006, 11:53 AM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 09:44 AM
no, check out the link i gave.  i said that's a sign of europe losing its soul, its moral compass.  the culture of death is about losing respect for human life -- abortions, contraception, etc.

The use of contraception is not losing respect for human life. It is preventing unwanted human life. It is preventing the need for abortions. Just how far back in the dark ages do you want to be?

i understand. i used to think the same thing because i didn't know the views against contraception. once i learned the other side of the argument, i agreed wih it. abstaining from artificial contraception is pro life.
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Mark
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 11:43 AM
Mark
Jan 23 2006, 11:36 AM
Would you be willing to die to carry a baby to term?

if it came down to my life or the baby's, i would choose the baby's. i would not abort. St. Gianna Beretta Molla made the same decision.

I hope you never have to make that decision.

If there is a heaven, you are a shoo-in! :cool:
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Axtremus
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 03:43 PM
Mark
Jan 23 2006, 11:36 AM
Would you be willing to die to carry a baby to term?

if it came down to my life or the baby's, i would choose the baby's. i would not abort. St. Gianna Beretta Molla made the same decision.

I hope you have this written up as a proper "advance directive," just in case the unthinkable were to happen and your loved ones try to second guess your intent and drag the case to the US Congress and Supreme Court! ;)
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AlbertaCrude
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 11:47 AM
abstaining from artificial contraception is pro life.

It is also pro choice assuming that it is the married couple, who, on their own particular circumstances, make the choice whether or not employ Natural Family Planning, barrier or hormonal contraceptive methods.
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Optimistic
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musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 02:43 PM
Mark
Jan 23 2006, 11:36 AM
Would you be willing to die to carry a baby to term?

if it came down to my life or the baby's, i would choose the baby's. i would not abort. St. Gianna Beretta Molla made the same decision.

This is where I have trouble planting myself firmly in either side of the abortion issue.

I know that I personally would not abort. If I was told that my life was at risk by taking the pregnancy to term, I would go ahead, and trust that whatever may happen is God's plan.

However, I cannot see trying to convince a mother who does not believe in God that she must risk her life because it what He thinks is best. What if she has other children at home? I doubt that she would see dying and leaving behind a family for her husband to take care of as "what is best."
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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sue
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Optimistic
Jan 23 2006, 12:25 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 02:43 PM
Mark
Jan 23 2006, 11:36 AM
Would you be willing to die to carry a baby to term?

if it came down to my life or the baby's, i would choose the baby's. i would not abort. St. Gianna Beretta Molla made the same decision.

This is where I have trouble planting myself firmly in either side of the abortion issue.

I know that I personally would not abort. If I was told that my life was at risk by taking the pregnancy to term, I would go ahead, and trust that whatever may happen is God's plan.

However, I cannot see trying to convince a mother who does not believe in God that she must risk her life because it what He thinks is best. What if she has other children at home? I doubt that she would see dying and leaving behind a family for her husband to take care of as "what is best."

I would think this is not a black or white decision. What if you already had 3 kids, your husband had recently died, you had no relatives around to look after your existing kids....would you still make the same decision?
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Aqua Letifer
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I would think this is not a black or white decision. What if you already had 3 kids, your husband had recently died, you had no relatives around to look after your existing kids....would you still make the same decision?


Well, there's always the adoption agency, foster families, etc...
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Axtremus
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Aqua Letifer
Jan 23 2006, 04:31 PM
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I would think this is not a black or white decision. What if you already had 3 kids, your husband had recently died, you had no relatives around to look after your existing kids....would you still make the same decision?


Well, there's always the adoption agency, foster families, etc...

Exactly!

When there's a will, there's an excuse.
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AlbertaCrude
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There is another view and one that has more than passing credibility and precedent in our common tradition.

That is, while we may not deliberately harm a fetus, when its life comes into direct conflict with an already born person, the autonomous person's life (i.e. the pregnant mother) takes precedence. This is applicable if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth. In such a circumstance, the baby is considered a third party pursuer after the mother with the intent to kill her. Despite the classification of the fetus as a persuer, once the baby's head has been delivered, the baby's life is considered equal to the mother's, and we may not choose one life over another, because it is considered as though they are both pursuing each other.
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Optimistic
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sue
Jan 23 2006, 03:28 PM
Optimistic
Jan 23 2006, 12:25 PM
musicasacra
Jan 23 2006, 02:43 PM
Mark
Jan 23 2006, 11:36 AM
Would you be willing to die to carry a baby to term?

if it came down to my life or the baby's, i would choose the baby's. i would not abort. St. Gianna Beretta Molla made the same decision.

This is where I have trouble planting myself firmly in either side of the abortion issue.

I know that I personally would not abort. If I was told that my life was at risk by taking the pregnancy to term, I would go ahead, and trust that whatever may happen is God's plan.

However, I cannot see trying to convince a mother who does not believe in God that she must risk her life because it what He thinks is best. What if she has other children at home? I doubt that she would see dying and leaving behind a family for her husband to take care of as "what is best."

I would think this is not a black or white decision. What if you already had 3 kids, your husband had recently died, you had no relatives around to look after your existing kids....would you still make the same decision?

Sue, it's hard to say because I'm not in that situation now, and can't really imagine the circumstances being so dire that I would choose to kill off a gift from God. If I was in such a situation as the one you mentioned, then I can imagine I would at least put a little more consideration into my choice. Hopefully I'll never have to think twice on that issue, though.
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Jan 23 2006, 12:31 PM
Quote:
 
I would think this is not a black or white decision. What if you already had 3 kids, your husband had recently died, you had no relatives around to look after your existing kids....would you still make the same decision?


Well, there's always the adoption agency, foster families, etc...

I find it hard to imagine any mother making a wilful choice to have her existing kids sent out to foster homes for the sake of an unborn child. How about looking after the ones you've already got? Could you really do this to your own kids? I can't imagine it.

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