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South Dakota to ban abortions?; ...the perfect law.
Topic Started: Jan 23 2006, 07:56 AM (4,184 Views)
AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Ivorythumper
 
As I respect your views. Thank you for the compliment.


You see the analogy as direct and instructive. I see the present holocaust on its own terms and unique. It's my way of showing respect to the innocence of its victims.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
mistake
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 03:36 PM
you seem to again be making a claim that the destruction of human beings is more acceptable if done with surgical precision, sterile conditions, and modern efficiency).

I never said that. As I said, you and I differ in how we see the fetus.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I know there's a ton of history there, Kathy, but lashing back right after an apology doesn't put you in the best possible light. Silence might have been the better alternative.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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kathyk
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musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 07:18 AM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 07:24 AM
Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.

i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it.

No, because it's the first and only poll I found. I've challenged you to find another.

Do you really expect anyone who is using a polling statistic to make a point in an internet chat room to give you a full analysis of the methodology used? :wacko:

And do you suggest I should to give your blanket, and unsupported statements that SD overwhelmingly opposes abortion more credence than the poll results I found? Sounds like your the one that has some splainin to do.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Jan 24 2006, 02:23 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 03:36 PM
you seem to again be making a claim that the destruction of human beings is more acceptable if done with surgical precision, sterile conditions, and modern efficiency).

I never said that. As I said, you and I differ in how we see the fetus.

you are right. if it's not a human being the analogy falls apart. i have no problem with that since there are neither medical nor philosophical reasons compelling enough to deny the essential humanity of the embryo.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 12:54 PM
BTW, AC, which Orthodox church do you attend? What do you think of His Eminence, the Most Reverend Metropolitan Nicholas and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese?  He certainly has no problem pointing out the parallel between the holocaust and modern totalitarian regimes and abortion.

Quote:
 
What do we do with such a crushing number as 40 million? It is tempting to be so overwhelmed by its enormity that we simply dismiss it as a statistic instead of accepting it as a reality. This is indeed what happened in the time of Hitler and Stalin: the world stood by, listless and impotent, while these dark lords disposed of millions of Jews and Gypsies and unwanted peoples (including many of our own}.



Depends- sometimes the American Orthodox Church across town and sometimes the Russian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchy that is close to where we live. To be honest we do not feel a pressing need to attend Divine Liturgy regularly- usually my wife and I will go to the Russian Church, light a few candles and sit quietly. I have yet to accept Chrismation (the Orthodox equivalent of Confirmation) into the Church.

As to what I think of the above quote? The same what I wrote to you earlier.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Thanks for pointing that out, Quirt. :redface:

I completely misread the apology. Completely. My bad. I thought he was saying he "meant" the earlier things he said. I guess sometimes we get so programmed to thinking we know what someone is going to say that we don't fully listen (or in this case, read).

Apology accepted.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Thank you.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 01:26 PM
musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 07:18 AM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 07:24 AM
Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.

i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it.

No, because it's the first and only poll I found. I've challenged you to find another.

Do you really expect anyone who is using a polling statistic to make a point in an internet chat room to give you a full analysis of the methodology used? :wacko:

And do you suggest I should to give your blanket, and unsupported statements that SD overwhelmingly opposes abortion more credence than the poll results I found? Sounds like your the one that has some splainin to do.

Polls, shmolls....

After the last presidential election, I thought you'd have learned your lesson.

The "polls" that count are the election polls, whether it be representative vote, or whether the vote concerns a statewide proposition.

If the representative government of SD is crafting legislation to literally ban something, haven't we already decided, however obliquely, the final results of the "poll"?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 02:26 PM
musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 07:18 AM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 07:24 AM
Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.

i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it.

No, because it's the first and only poll I found. I've challenged you to find another.

Do you really expect anyone who is using a polling statistic to make a point in an internet chat room to give you a full analysis of the methodology used? :wacko:

And do you suggest I should to give your blanket, and unsupported statements that SD overwhelmingly opposes abortion more credence than the poll results I found? Sounds like your the one that has some splainin to do.

i'm not the one who grabbed a undocumented poll and threw it into the discussion as evidence. you should find another rather than expect me to.

i didn't say you personally should give a full account of the methods used when conducting the poll. i said if you're going to cite a poll, you should use certain objective criteria to determine its validity before citing it. if i cited poll results in a sensitive conversation, i should expect i might be asked to verify its validity.

and since i lived nearly all of my life in south dakota and worked in politics there, i do have some sense of the pulse of south dakotans on certain issues. and by the way, it was the democratic party i worked for.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Jan 24 2006, 02:27 PM
I have yet to accept Chrismation (the Orthodox equivalent of Confirmation) into the Church.

Is chrismation considered a repeatable sacrament? I assume that you were confirmed as a Catholic lad? I understand that the east and west have differing models for grace and sacramental efficacy (speaking of course with the western concepts), but it would surprise me if some equivalent of "permanent character" were not recognized. It would surprise me even more if the Orthodox did not recognize Catholic confirmation.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kathyk
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musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 01:41 PM
i said if you're going to cite a poll, you should use certain objective criteria to determine its validity before citing it.  if i cited poll results in a sensitive conversation, i should expect i might be asked to verify its validity. 

and since i lived nearly all of my life in south dakota and worked in politics there, i do have some sense of the pulse of south dakotans on certain issues.  and by the way, it was the democratic party i worked for.

I gave you a citation to the site from which I took it. You asked what question was asked. I recited the question. You questioned the credibility of the polling outfit. I revisted the site and then relayed my impression that it's a legit, non-political, polling outfit. Honestly - I'm baffled that you persist in this and I'm not wasting any more timeon it. If you truly doubt the statistic, do your own research. Until then, whether to give your personal pulse on the people of SD or this particular poll more credence is a no-brainer - at least for me.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Jan 24 2006, 11:02 AM
ivorythumper,Jan 24 2006
12:09 AM

To put it bluntly IT, ask yourself how Woytila or Ratzinger would have posed the same question? I think you yourself would not have asked it using the same crass reference. I doubt very much whether Woytila or Ratzinger would have either.

Sorry to inform you AC, I ain't a Pope. :( Thanks for thinking my post would be written as a Papal Encyclical.

And thank you for lumping me with kathyk--I'm kind of sweet on her these days. :hug:

But, to the point: your "shoot the messenger because you have nor real response to the question" plan didn't work--my point still stands.

And Moonbat--my apologies--I meant "human life."
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Of course, according to the testimony of Dr Bernard Nathanson, one of the founders of NARAL, the whole abortion polling practice was a huge lie from its inception. He recounts how they sat around the living room and literally made up numbers for their press releases. You should read Aborting America

I do not see on what basis it has gained any credibility since then.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 03:09 PM
musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 01:41 PM
i said if you're going to cite a poll, you should use certain objective criteria to determine its validity before citing it.  if i cited poll results in a sensitive conversation, i should expect i might be asked to verify its validity. 

and since i lived nearly all of my life in south dakota and worked in politics there, i do have some sense of the pulse of south dakotans on certain issues.  and by the way, it was the democratic party i worked for.

I gave you a citation to the site from which I took it. You asked what question was asked. I recited the question. You questioned the credibility of the polling outfit. I revisted the site and then relayed my impression that it's a legit, non-political, polling outfit. Honestly - I'm baffled that you persist in this and I'm not wasting any more timeon it. If you truly doubt the statistic, do your own research. Until then, whether to give your personal pulse on the people of SD or this particular poll more credence is a no-brainer - at least for me.

you still didn't address the valid criteria for a poll. you are also misstating to say you provided the exact question that was asked. as i said, the title was not in quotes so i can only assume it to be a summary of what was asked, not the exact wording. and wording does matter. i could tell you about some of my polling experiences when i worked for the democratic party in south dakota.

it seems you have faith in polls posted on the net that are not documented, that do not explain:
who paid for the poll
who conducted the poll
how were the questions worded
how were the questions introduced and explained
who were the persons polled (i.e., how were they selected)
what was the size of the sample
on what dates was the poll conducted

that's up to you. but if you are going to cite undocumented polls in the future, you might be asked about their validity.
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The 89th Key
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kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 04:26 PM
musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 07:18 AM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 07:24 AM
Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.

i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it.

No, because it's the first and only poll I found. I've challenged you to find another.

Do you really expect anyone who is using a polling statistic to make a point in an internet chat room to give you a full analysis of the methodology used? :wacko:

And do you suggest I should to give your blanket, and unsupported statements that SD overwhelmingly opposes abortion more credence than the poll results I found? Sounds like your the one that has some splainin to do.

All this talk about polls is futile.

I gave about 7 polls earlier supporting the hypothesis that MORE americans are pro-life than pro-choice.

We can all find polls to support our positions.
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Jan 24 2006, 03:33 PM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 04:26 PM
musicasacra
Jan 24 2006, 07:18 AM
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 07:24 AM
Until such time, as things stand here, any statistics that have been presented in this thread show that in SD, 49% of persons polled consider themselves pro-life and 47% consider themselves pro-choice.

i see, ignore the necessary documentation that validates the data in poll . . . and stand by a poll you grabbed off the internet because you like its results. you cite "statistics" -- but provide no documentation. that's carp. even if you cited such an undocumented poll conversationally, you know you would be called on it.

No, because it's the first and only poll I found. I've challenged you to find another.

Do you really expect anyone who is using a polling statistic to make a point in an internet chat room to give you a full analysis of the methodology used? :wacko:

And do you suggest I should to give your blanket, and unsupported statements that SD overwhelmingly opposes abortion more credence than the poll results I found? Sounds like your the one that has some splainin to do.

All this talk about polls is futile.

I gave about 7 polls earlier supporting the hypothesis that MORE americans are pro-life than pro-choice.

We can all find polls to support our positions.

exactly. i worked in polling and know how they are contorted from beginning to end.

i would entertain discussion on polls that are fully documented. otherwise, an undocumented poll is similar to a blog or bulletin board as a source of reference.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Gimme a break - what a hedge! I gave you the site. Here it is again. This time directed to their credentials, (their clients, their methodology, etc.).

Survey USA - polling company

I already gave you the question which couldn't have been stated any more unambiguosly: Do you consider yourself pro-life or pro-choice?

Posted Image

And a list of recent polls they've conducted:

Polls

89 - I haven't seen any of polls you've purportedly proffered - I can only imagine where they might have come from. Want to share?
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
here's a nice poll...

Posted Image
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Jan 24 2006, 01:44 PM
AlbertaCrude
Jan 24 2006, 02:27 PM
I have yet to accept Chrismation (the Orthodox equivalent of Confirmation) into the Church.

Is chrismation considered a repeatable sacrament? I assume that you were confirmed as a Catholic lad? I understand that the east and west have differing models for grace and sacramental efficacy (speaking of course with the western concepts), but it would surprise me if some equivalent of "permanent character" were not recognized. It would surprise me even more if the Orthodox did not recognize Catholic confirmation.

As I understand it, and I very well be could be wrong, if a Confirmed RC were on their death bed, and no RC priest was available to administer the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, an Orthodox priest will perform the Sacrament in accordance to the traditions of the Apostolic Succession. Likewise that same person if deceased will receive Christian burial in consecrated ground of the Orthodox Church.

In the case of conversion to Orthodoxy, while it naturally does recognize the Sacrament of Confirmation into the RCC, all converts who have been baptised according to the Trinitrian formula are formally received into Orthodoxy through Chrismation. Probably doesn't answer your question very well.

Orthodoxy though has another peculiarity. If a person receives a civil marriage and divorces then at a later date intends to be received into Orthodoxy, some but not all, Orthodox jurisdictions may recognize the validity of the civil marriage and require an ecclesiastical divorce. I suspect this goes back to Justinianian code which codified marriage as a civil institution, and Matrimony which was and remains a Church Sacrament.

TomK
 
But, to the point: your "shoot the messenger because you have nor real response to the question" plan didn't work--my point still stands.


Of course it does but it doesn't mean that I agree with it or that I had a plan in mind when I lashed out at you. In retrospect, I should have let it stand and said nothing. I have no problem, saying, "I'm sorry Tom".
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 24 2006, 03:58 PM
Gimme a break - what a hedge!  I gave you the site.  Here it is again.  This time directed to their credentials, (their clients, their methodology, etc.). 

Survey USA -  polling company

I already gave you the question which couldn't have been stated any more unambiguosly:  Do you consider yourself pro-life or pro-choice?

Posted Image

And a list of recent polls they've conducted:

Polls

89 - I haven't seen any of polls you've purportedly proffered - I can only imagine where they might have come from.  Want to share?

the site doesn't say precisely what the question was. that's simply the title of the poll. wording is very important in poll language.

and the other important criteria for a valid poll are not fufilled. the criteria relate to each other and give an overall sense of the poll's validity.

i saw their page about general methodology, but again they give no citations for the circumstances of how they conducted this particular poll. that's important to consider in its validity.

do you accept these are important criteria to document for a validly conducted poll?:

who paid for the poll
who conducted the poll
how were the questions worded
how were the questions introduced and explained
who were the persons polled (i.e., how were they selected)
what was the size of the sample
on what dates was the poll conducted
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
I gave about 7 polls earlier supporting the hypothesis that MORE americans are pro-life than pro-choice.


Sorry, 89th, but you are misquoting the polls.

There are plenty of polls suggesting that a majority of Americans might believe that limits on abortion are appropriate. Limits like not in the third trimester, limits like children must get parental consent.

But there is not a single credible poll that I've ever seen suggesting that a majority of Americans believe that life begins at conception and that abortion should be outlawed except in order to save the mother's life.

Not one.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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The 89th Key
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Kathy, they were from Pew and other research firms like that. I'd dig them up...but no search function.

From the looks of it, SurveyUSA seems to be pretty accurate and reliable. I don't doubt the numbers. I'm just saying I have seen results that tip the other way as well...

Here are a few:

January 8, 2001 - Most Say Abortion Is Manslaughter

UTICA, N.Y. (Reuters/Zogby) - In a Zogby ``American Values'' poll respondents were asked to choose between the two statements, ``abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter,'' or ``abortion does not destroy a life and is not manslaughter.''

The nationwide poll of 1,005 likely voters with a margin of error of +/- 3.2% showed that 51% believed that that abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter while another 35% said that abortion does not destroy a life and is not manslaughter. Eight percent agreed with neither statement while 6% said they weren't sure.

By party affiliation, 37% of Democrats said abortion was manslaughter while 47% disagreed. Another 67% of Republicans said that abortion was manslaughter while 23% disagreed. Fifty-one percent of independents felt that abortion was manslaughter while 32% said it was not.

By gender, men and women's feeling were statistically the same - 51% of both men and women agreed that abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter while 37% of men and 33% of women said that abortion neither destroys a life nor is manslaughter. While 7% of men and 9% of women agreed with neither statement, 5% of men and 7% of women were not sure.

What we asked:

``Please choose the statement that most closely resembles your own opinion.

On abortion.

Statement A. abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter.

Statement B. abortion does not destroy a life and is not manslaughter.''


----

August 1999
A Zogby International "American Values" poll, released on August 26, 1999, showed the majority of Americans believe abortion is manslaughter, are opposed to tax-funded partial birth abortions, and that parents should be notified if their minor child seeks an abortion.

Abortion: An overwhelming majority of respondents (77.7%) said physicians should notify parents if an underage girl is seeking and abortion. Another majority, (52%) said they personally believe that abortion destroys a human life and is manslaughter while 36.1% did not believe abortion destroys a human life.

On the issue of partial birth abortions, 56.4% oppose partial birth abortions because it is murder except if the mother's life is in danger; 31.5% say it's up to the mother to determine.

Respondents overwhelmingly oppose (71% to 22.8%) the use of federal funds for partial birth abortions.
Zogby International Web Site, August 26, 1999


----

July 1999
A CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll revealed that over 70 percent of Americans think access to abortion should be limited to some circumstances.

The poll was based on phone interviews with 1,014 adults April 30-May 2. Responses indicated that:

16 percent of Americans think abortion should be illegal in all cases.

55 percent said abortions should be allowed only in cases of incest or to save the life of the mother.

27 percent said abortion should be allowed in all cases.

The poll also showed that the number of people who consider themselves "pro-choice" dropped from 56 percent three yrs ago to 48 percent today.

Those who considered themselves "pro-life" increased from 36 percent three yrs ago to 42 percent today."

Source: St. Anthony Messenger Magazine, July 1999


----

January, 1999
According to the Annual Survey of College Freshmen, only 51 per cent of freshmen believe that abortion should be legal, a decline of 14 percentage points since the beginning of the decade.

Abortion should be legal.
Total 50.9%
Men 52.5%
Women 49.5%

While this is a slight majority for the pro-choice side, college-aged people are typically more pro-choice than any other age group.

The survey, now in its 33rd year, is conducted by the Higher Education Research Institute, at the University of California at Los Angeles. It is intended to provide a look at how the attitudes and aspirations of college freshmen have changed over time. This year's report is based on the responses of 275,811 students at 469 two- and four-year institutions.

Copies of the report, The American Freshman: National Norms for Fall 1998, are available for $22 each, plus $4.79 for shipping, from the Higher Education Research Institute, 3005 Moore Hall, U.C.L.A. Graduate School of Education and Information Studies, Box 951521, Los Angeles 90095-1521.


----

A Campaign for Working Families exit poll, conducted 3/10, surveyed 411 "actual voters"; margin of error +/- 5% (release, 3/11/98).

Ques: "Which of the following statements most closely reflects your position on the issue of abortion?"

Pro-life - 50%
- Should Be Prohibited In All Cases 16%
- Should Be Legal Only To Save Mother's Life 12%
- Should Be Legal In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or To Save Mother's Life 22%

Pro-choice - 41%
- Should Be Allowed At Any Time During Pregnancy 18%
- Should Be Legal For Any Reason, But Not After First Tri-mester 17%
- Should Be Legal For Any Reason, But Not After Second Tri-mester 6%

- Don't Know - 9%

Currently, abortion is allowed at any time during pregnancy, thus, only 18% of those surveyed agree with the current law.


----

1989
92% believe abortion should be illegal "if a family decides they don't want another child."
Washington Post, October 7, 1989

--

80% oppose abortion used as a form of birth control. (13% in favor)
Los Angeles Times, March 19, 1989

--

85% believe abortion should be illegal "if the woman could not afford to care for the baby."
Washington Post, October 7, 1989


---------

And those are just some I found after 5 minutes of searching...
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
how about a poll that asks..."do u belive that human life begins at conception and therefore all abortion is murder?" which i think accurately describes IT and MS veiwpoint.....


but seriously, the only intersting poll (because it seemed to cover all options) i found in what u quoted 89th is this one..

A Campaign for Working Families exit poll, conducted 3/10, surveyed 411 "actual voters"; margin of error +/- 5% (release, 3/11/98).

Ques: "Which of the following statements most closely reflects your position on the issue of abortion?"

Pro-life - 50%
- Should Be Prohibited In All Cases 16%
- Should Be Legal Only To Save Mother's Life 12%
- Should Be Legal In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or To Save Mother's Life 22%

Pro-choice - 41%
- Should Be Allowed At Any Time During Pregnancy 18%
- Should Be Legal For Any Reason, But Not After First Tri-mester 17%
- Should Be Legal For Any Reason, But Not After Second Tri-mester 6%

- Don't Know - 9%

Currently, abortion is allowed at any time during pregnancy, thus, only 18% of those surveyed agree with the current law.

what a funny conclusion. i could argue that only 16% agree with the catholic position, and only up to 28% (16% + 12%)agree with your position (prohibited except for mothers life), clear minority positions.

in addition, even most pro choicers dont agree that abortion should be allowed anytime...

in other words, the vast majority of those polled hold "intermediate" type views...with only the two tail ends being minority opinions.

yet the conclusion drawn is...only 18% agree with current law.

another example of how the numbers can tell any story u want.

i still prefer my "pole..." (pictured above)
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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