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Proof of God.; ...episode 4: Gradation.
Topic Started: Jan 12 2006, 09:17 PM (271 Views)
The 89th Key
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------------
Proof of God

by Saint Thomas Aquinas

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.
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Again, it seems he references the virtue-esque nature of things...looking at the polar extremes, which logically lead to a source, and in this case "God" is the maximum standard. Oh, and I think you all will like #5... :P
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
1. Could differences be due to genetics?

2. Does the "something which is truest... best... noblest" logically have to exist? Could it be that humans simply haven't achieved that state, which is possible, but which has never been achieved by anyone or anything?

3. Is fire "the cause of all hot things?" Are there not other sources of heat, for example, friction?
Sam
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The 89th Key
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Ah, good questions PJ. You'll have proven God before you know it! :D
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The 89th Key
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You should write a senior thesis proving that God exists! Or maybe why ice floats...one of the two, anyway. :P
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Aqua Letifer
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The 89th Key
Jan 12 2006, 09:30 PM
You should write a senior thesis proving that God exists! Or maybe why ice floats...one of the two, anyway. :P

Bahahahah. That was a pretty darn extensive lab in my intro. to chemistry course. (HINT: hydrogen bonding).

Pretty darn interesting, though. Water is by far the most interesting substance on planet earth.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Well of course...God created it to be the most interesting substance. ;)

Ok that was lame...get back to work mechanic!
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Someone set up us the late night with much work.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest


There is no "hottest", argument fails.

Quote:
 

so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being


Seriously 89th do you find this nonsense convincing?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Aqua Letifer
Jan 13 2006, 12:42 AM

Pretty darn interesting, though. Water is by far the most interesting substance on planet earth.

Oh, I'm not sure about that. :wink:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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pianojerome
Jan 13 2006, 01:22 AM
2. Does the "something which is truest... best... noblest" logically have to exist? Could it be that humans simply haven't achieved that state, which is possible, but which has never been achieved by anyone or anything?

What are you talking about? The Buddhists have always known that many sentient beings have achieved that ultimate state of consciousness. They call it "Buddha-hood." :wink:
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The 89th Key
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Moonbat
Jan 13 2006, 04:34 AM
Quote:
 

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest


There is no "hottest", argument fails.

Quote:
 

so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being


Seriously 89th do you find this nonsense convincing?

Never said I found it convincing and I never said I'm trying to prove God...just thought these conclusions were interesting and generally accurate, although abstract...which is a contradiction in terms, just like Military Intelligence (GMV!). ;)

Like JB said earlier, those with faith do not need to prove God, but IMO, it's stimulating and interesting to try to. Aquinas and others (who I might post later, per Jon-NYC's comments) make some good arguments, even if they aren't absolute.
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Aqua Letifer
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John D'Oh
Jan 13 2006, 05:24 AM
Aqua Letifer
Jan 13 2006, 12:42 AM

Pretty darn interesting, though.  Water is by far the most interesting substance on planet earth.

Oh, I'm not sure about that. :wink:

Well, I didn't say the most versatile, you gotta remember.

I wonder what would win in a fight?

H[size=1]2[/size]0 vs. C[size=1]2[/size]H[size=1]6[/size]O, Thursday at 4 AM on ESPN Alternate.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Jan 13 2006, 07:12 AM
pianojerome
Jan 13 2006, 01:22 AM
2. Does the "something which is truest... best... noblest" logically have to exist?  Could it be that humans simply haven't achieved that state, which is possible, but which has never been achieved by anyone or anything?

What are you talking about? The Buddhists have always known that many sentient beings have achieved that ultimate state of consciousness. They call it "Buddha-hood." :wink:

So how do they know it is ultimate? Maybe they set the bar too low. How do you "know" it is so?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Aqua Letifer
Jan 13 2006, 08:14 AM
John D'Oh
Jan 13 2006, 05:24 AM
Aqua Letifer
Jan 13 2006, 12:42 AM

Pretty darn interesting, though.  Water is by far the most interesting substance on planet earth.

Oh, I'm not sure about that. :wink:

Well, I didn't say the most versatile, you gotta remember.

I wonder what would win in a fight?

H[size=1]2[/size]0 vs. C[size=1]2[/size]H[size=1]6[/size]O, Thursday at 4 AM on ESPN Alternate.

I think XX is a far more interesting substance than water -- and you get the water thrown in as well!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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ivorythumper
Jan 13 2006, 02:08 PM
Axtremus
Jan 13 2006, 07:12 AM
pianojerome
Jan 13 2006, 01:22 AM
2. Does the "something which is truest... best... noblest" logically have to exist?  Could it be that humans simply haven't achieved that state, which is possible, but which has never been achieved by anyone or anything?

What are you talking about? The Buddhists have always known that many sentient beings have achieved that ultimate state of consciousness. They call it "Buddha-hood." :wink:

So how do they know it is ultimate? Maybe they set the bar too low. How do you "know" it is so?

I was simply relaying the claim of this sect of Buddhists.

Talking about setting the bar "too low"... there are also Buddhists who believe that that which people from the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition call "God," while may be a powerful being, is still quite far away, quite immature even, for "Buddha-hood" seeing His/Her constant insecurity in want of exclusive worship, clinginess to the notions of "good vs. evil," "love," and "fear," just can't let go of wanting to dish out judgements in the future, etc. In their minds, those who have reached "Buddha-hood" have long transcended all that stuff. :wink:

While those from the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition likes to rank things ("set the bar 'higher' or 'lower'), the philosophical Toaists and (some other) Buddhists would most likely advise not getting caught up by trying to rank things at all. ;)
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ivorythumper
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Axtremus
Jan 13 2006, 11:53 AM

While those from the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition likes to rank things ("set the bar 'higher' or 'lower'), the philosophical Toaists and (some other) Buddhists would most likely advise not getting caught up by trying to rank things at all. ;)

Buddhism is certainly intriguing in that regard -- ranking as a manifestation of ego trapped in maya. But of course I think this is a denial of humanity and an attempt to escape from the "reality" (as we understand it) of the human condition. Where as Buddhism deals with suffering through denying its reality, Christianity deals with it through redemption. There are also internal contradictions to the idea that Buddhists don't (optimally) rank things, else wise why would they seek asceticism as a better path?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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ivorythumper
Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM
There are also internal contradictions to the idea that Buddhists don't (optimally) rank things, else wise why would they seek asceticism as a better path?

Some minor sects of Buddhistm pursue asceticism. Most don't. :shrug:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Jan 13 2006, 06:25 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM
There are also internal contradictions to the idea that Buddhists don't (optimally) rank things, else wise why would they seek asceticism as a better path?

Some minor sects of Buddhistm pursue asceticism. Most don't. :shrug:

Christians come in many flavors as well...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
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Indeed, do you prefer an vintage wine or Benedictine? :D
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
The Trappists make some excellent beers. The Dominicans founded the Plymouth ginnery. The Carthusians at the Grand Chartreuse made a delightful contribution to our gustatory sensibilities. So many choices!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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sue
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ivorythumper
Jan 13 2006, 10:08 AM
Maybe they set the bar too low.

I hate that. I'm pretty tall, and I hate having to lean over so far for my drink.
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JBryan
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Axtremus
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ivorythumper
Jan 13 2006, 10:51 PM
The Trappists make some excellent beers. The Dominicans founded the Plymouth ginnery. The Carthusians at the Grand Chartreuse made a delightful contribution to our gustatory sensibilities. So many choices!

Got to give it to the Christians on this one... Buddhist teaching generally discourages the consumption of alcoholic beverages, so they have made no significant contribution in that area.
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