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proselytism / missionaries
Topic Started: Jan 12 2006, 06:19 PM (826 Views)
The 89th Key
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kenny
Jan 12 2006, 10:08 PM
It is one of the most arrogant and insulting things humans do to each other.

It should be illegal.

Yes, it is. Man, I can't believe someone would want to spread a message of love and mercy to their friends! :rolleyes:

...SO ARROGANT! THIS LOVE IS PISSING ME OFF!
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Jan 12 2006, 07:11 PM
Amanda
Jan 12 2006, 10:08 PM
What happened to "witnessing" to  your faith by the exemplary way you live - including how you deal with  others?

That is, actually...the best way, IMO.

mine too, I think that's pretty much what I said in my posts.

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The 89th Key
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Yes you did. A Christian's example is good for two reasons, I think.

1) It helps you strive to live your life better, to emulate Jesus in every step, etc.
2) It spreads God's message of love and mercy both directly and indirectly. :)
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Everyone thinks he or she is right.
Absolutely everyone.
Being right, and death, is somehting we have in common.

Witnessing is saying, "You are wrong."
Be and think like me and you will be right.

It is the most fundamentally degrading thing you can do to a person.
I suppose physical violence is worse, perhaps.
Perhaps not.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jan 12 2006, 10:08 PM
It should be illegal.

No, not illegal. No reason why it should be illegal to tell someone how you feel. It's really advertisement - but very personal, controversial (often unwelcomed) advertisement.

But, I think people should try to understand that their "educating" and "spreading love and God's Good Word" is not welcome by many uninterested people, and is very soon interpreted as harassment.
Sam
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
The 89th Key
Jan 12 2006, 08:11 PM
That is, actually...the best way, IMO.

IMO, too.

Back when I was a kid, I used to spend a week each summer with my Aunt Dee. She was actually my great aunt - My grandmother's sister in law.

Aunt Dee, may she rest in peace, still occupies a special place in my heart. She was gracious and charming in every way; raised beautiful flowers and vegetables, knew everything about birds and trees and was the most kind and caring woman you will ever meet. She lived by herself in a house with a big yard, so I would help her with the yardwork and such when I would stay there.

She was quite active in her church (Methodist, IIRC), but maintained an abiding curiosity in faiths of all sorts. Once when I was there, a pair of Missionaries (Watchtower?) came to the door and she invited them in. She served them iced tea, lemonade and cookies, along with figs and little slices of Mandarin oranges from her trees. They must have been there for the better part of the afternoon. Their conversation was a marvel to witness - broadly ranging over numerous subjects religious and otherwise. It was all quite friendly, and quite respectful. I just sat back and took it all in.

And when the afternoon was over, the missionaries had agreed to accompany her to church the following Sunday.

THAT's how it's supposed to be done.
Wag more
Bark less
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DivaDeb
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pianojerome
Jan 12 2006, 06:54 PM
Deb, that I would agree with. If someone asks, then why not tell?

But I am bothered by missionaries who don't just respond to my questions, but who make it their duty to try and "educate" me. Particularly the ones who don't even know me.

I think the belligerent ones are satisfying their approbation lust. Screw that :P
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The 89th Key
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kenny
Jan 12 2006, 10:20 PM
Everyone thinks he or she is right.
Absolutely everyone.
Being right, and death, is somehting we have in common.

Witnessing is saying, "You are wrong."
Be and think like me and you will be right.

It is the most fundamentally degrading thing you can do to a person.
I suppose physical violence is worse, perhaps.
Perhaps not.

You say that you think I'm wrong all the time, Kenny.

What are you talking about?

Are you only holding this standard to religion or something?
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The 89th Key
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Steve Miller
Jan 12 2006, 10:22 PM
The 89th Key
Jan 12 2006, 08:11 PM
That is, actually...the best way, IMO.

IMO, too.

Back when I was a kid, I used to spend a week each summer with my Aunt Dee. She was actually my great aunt - My grandmother's sister in law.

Aunt Dee, may she rest in peace, still occupies a special place in my heart. She was gracious and charming in every way; raised beautiful flowers and vegetables, knew everything about birds and trees and was the most kind and caring woman you will ever meet. She lived by herself in a house with a big yard, so I would help her with the yardwork and such when I would stay there.

She was quite active in her church (Methodist, IIRC), but maintained an abiding curiosity in faiths of all sorts. Once when I was there, a pair of Missionaries (Watchtower?) came to the door and she invited them in. She served them iced tea, lemonade and cookies, along with figs and little slices of Mandarin oranges from her trees. They must have been there for the better part of the afternoon. Their conversation was a marvel to witness - broadly ranging over numerous subjects religious and otherwise. It was all quite friendly, and quite respectful. I just sat back and took it all in.

And when the afternoon was over, the missionaries had agreed to accompany her to church the following Sunday.

THAT's how it's supposed to be done.

Nice story Steve. She sounded like a wonderful woman. :)
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jan 12 2006, 07:20 PM
Everyone thinks he or she is right.
Absolutely everyone.
Being right, and death, is somehting we have in common.

Witnessing is saying, "You are wrong."
Be and think like me and you will be right.

It is the most fundamentally degrading thing you can do to a person.
I suppose physical violence is worse, perhaps.
Perhaps not.

Kenny,

I am wrong a lot of times about many things. It's okay with me if you want to tell me you think I am wrong. Many many worse things than that have happened to me. If I snap at someone for pointing out I'm wrong, it's usually a result of general crankiness at the moment in question. I try very hard to think my way through my grumpiness and not react emotionally instead of respond thoughtfully. Sometimes I even do that wrong. But I keep trying.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I just remember the time I was walking my dog on the bike trail and these two missionaries on bikes would NOT leave me alone. I finally had to tell them that if they did not quit following me they were going to go be with Jesus a lot sooner than they might think.

Other than persistence in the face of disinterest, I think it is fine. But when I say go away, go away.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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DivaDeb
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Mikhailoh
Jan 12 2006, 07:41 PM
I finally had to tell them that if they did not quit following me they were going to go be with Jesus a lot sooner than they might think.


:lol2:
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The 89th Key
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Mikhailoh
Jan 12 2006, 10:41 PM
I just remember the time I was walking my dog on the bike trail and these two missionaries on bikes would NOT leave me alone. I finally had to tell them that if they did not quit following me they were going to go be with Jesus a lot sooner than they might think.

Other than persistence in the face of disinterest, I think it is fine. But when I say go away, go away.

Yeah, I believe they are Mormons. I lived 2 houses down from a Mormon church, and so we saw them a lot. Of course they had a huge parking lot, next to woods...so that's where I spent most of my childhood...but in the snow, when building forts, they'd sometimes come by. We'd get in long-lasting snowball fights! :D

Posted Image
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Amanda
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Senior Carp
kenny
Jan 12 2006, 11:20 PM

Witnessing is saying, "You are wrong."
Be and think like me and you will be right.

It is the most fundamentally degrading thing you can do to a person.
I suppose physical violence is worse, perhaps.
Perhaps not.

I can't agree with you here, kenny. "Witnessing" so far as I know, just means living your life according to your lights - a bit more aware perhaps (like a parent) that you're being watched..as indeed we all are.

No one necessarily knows WHAT your faith is religiously - or even if you have one. (You may not!) If they're interested, they'll ask. Otherwise, they just observe and maybe learn. At any rate, they'll probably enjoy your company and leave your presence feeling a little better than they entered it.

How can that mean any kind of degradation or violence?
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I do not understand the need to worship anything.
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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The 89th Key
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Oh, it's wonderful Mark...you should try it! :)
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I have 89th!

I do not see a need for it.
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Jan 12 2006, 11:20 PM
Oh, it's wonderful Mark...you should try it! :)

That's a better way of saying it.
Sam
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
"I do not see the need to worship anything."

"Oh, it's wonderful Mark..."

"How? How can worshipping a God that you can't prove exists be so wonderful?"

"Well, it adds a sense of structure and meaning to life. It helps to explain a lot of questions, including what happens after we die."

"But you can't prove that any of that is true, and there are still other questions."

"True, but believing in God not only provides me with possible answers, it also gives me something to confide in when times are rough - someone non-human to talk to and express my feelings."

"I've tried that in my youth, and it didn't do anything for me. Wouldn't it be better to seek comfort and help from someone you love, rather than from a God who never directly answers your prayers, and who may not even exist?"

....


No mention of the other person needing to convert or "try" religion. But a good discussion, nonetheless.
Sam
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The 89th Key
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I disagree PJ, funny enough I found your statement more imposing than the one you quoted me saying! :P
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I find it troubling to witness a person of faith attempting to prove the existence of God.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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The 89th Key
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pianojerome
Jan 12 2006, 11:29 PM
"I do not see the need to worship anything."

"Oh, it's wonderful Mark..."

"How? How can worshipping a God that you can't prove exists be so wonderful?"

"Well, it adds a sense of structure and meaning to life. It helps to explain a lot of questions, including what happens after we die."

"But you can't prove that any of that is true, and there are still other questions."

"True, but believing in God not only provides me with possible answers, it also gives me something to confide in when times are rough - someone non-human to talk to and express my feelings."

"I've tried that in my youth, and it didn't do anything for me. Wouldn't it be better to seek comfort and help from someone you love, rather than from a God who never directly answers your prayers, and who may not even exist?"

....


No mention of the other person needing to convert or "try" religion. But a good discussion, nonetheless.

Yes, but you are keeping the discussion on the earthly level. You and I both know there are more (and more important) things when having a relationship with God. Things that can't be explained to non-believers as they'd call you nuts.

You shouldn't try and "sell" God based on what He can do for your feelings, or life. IMO, that's the wrong way to go about it. Sometimes expressing your faith and what it means will lead to you talking over someone's head...about faith, forgiveness, mercy, a divine love, salvation, etc...things that aren't going to be proven scientifically, but can be proven in your heart.
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The 89th Key
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JBryan
Jan 12 2006, 11:34 PM
I find it troubling to witness a person of faith attempting to prove the existence of God.

Who's trying to prove God?

I posted (and am posting) Aquinas' thoughts, because they are intriguing and lead to a good discussion, and make sense. I never said I was trying to prove God existed. I already know He does. :)
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
---
Sam
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Jan 12 2006, 11:34 PM
pianojerome
Jan 12 2006, 11:29 PM
"I do not see the need to worship anything."

"Oh, it's wonderful Mark..."

"How?  How can worshipping a God that you can't prove exists be so wonderful?"

"Well, it adds a sense of structure and meaning to life.  It helps to explain a lot of questions, including what happens after we die."

"But you can't prove that any of that is true, and there are still other questions."

"True, but believing in God not only provides me with possible answers, it also gives me something to confide in when times are rough - someone non-human to talk to and express my feelings."

"I've tried that in my youth, and it didn't do anything for me.  Wouldn't it be better to seek comfort and help from someone you love, rather than from a God who never directly answers your prayers, and who may not even exist?"

....


No mention of the other person needing to convert or "try" religion.  But a good discussion, nonetheless.

Yes, but you are keeping the discussion on the earthly level. You and I both know there are more (and more important) things when having a relationship with God. Things that can't be explained to non-believers as they'd call you nuts.

You shouldn't try and "sell" God based on what He can do for your feelings, or life. IMO, that's the wrong way to go about it. Sometimes expressing your faith and what it means will lead to you talking over someone's head...about faith, forgiveness, mercy, a divine love, salvation, etc...things that aren't going to be proven scientifically, but can be proven in your heart.

That's the problem, 89th.

I'm not talking about selling God. I'm not talking about trying to convince someone of anything.


I'm just talking about having a discussion, without implying that the other person should try religion (or in Mark's case, try again).

You recall all of our discussions that I began about Christian subjects. And I hope you know by now that I'm not considering Christianity, and I wasn't before. But I asked all of those questions, because I was curious, and because there were so many questions that I had, and in fact I learned a tremendous amount from those discussions, and I know others learned a tremendous amount as well (about Christian points of view and my own and others' points of views). They were great discussions that often lasted quite a few pages (sometimes over 100 posts). No suggestions of people trying Christianity, or converting, but still really great discussions of religion.
Sam
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