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Do you have lace on your drawers?; Not if you're a real man....
Topic Started: Jan 9 2006, 12:25 PM (1,453 Views)
kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
Aqua Letifer
Jan 10 2006, 02:02 PM
Thanks, kent. :thumb: I'll try to get back on topic now, so as not to completely hijack the thread.

We're talking about killing coyotes, Aqua.

Not only has the thread already been hijacked, they've started shooting the passengers...
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kentcouncil
Jan 10 2006, 12:07 PM
Aqua Letifer
Jan 10 2006, 02:02 PM
Thanks, kent. :thumb:  I'll try to get back on topic now, so as not to completely hijack the thread.

We're talking about killing coyotes, Aqua.

Not only has the thread already been hijacked, they've started shooting the passengers...

Yeah, but since the train hasn't derailed and/or burst into flames yet, I suppose we're still "sort of" in reality. :smile:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Posted Image

pwn3d.
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big al
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Bull-Carp
Aqua Letifer
Jan 10 2006, 11:49 AM
RATS.

Now you (inadvertently?) mentioned the vermin I personally hate more than any other.

When I was a boy on the farm, we had an outbreak of disease among the barn cats. Some died and the remainder ran off to live in the fields. The rats tried to take over.

My job was to try to keep them in check, particularly around the granary. I'd find their holes that they gnawed through the walls and nail tin over all but a couple. Then at night, I'd put on my boots, lace the pants inside them, put on a hat with ear flaps, a jacket, and leather gloves and go into the granary with a flashlight in my left hand and a piece of pipe in my right. The rats would start running for the holes and up my legs and I'd swing and hit as many as I could before they vanished. This went on for many weeks until the cats recovered and returned to the barn.

To my mind, the only good rat is a dead rat.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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To my mind, the only good rat is a dead rat.


Death of Rats:

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What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
John D'Oh
Jan 10 2006, 02:36 PM
Quote:
 
To my mind, the only good rat is a dead rat.


Death of Rats:

Posted Image

Dol will love you for that.
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
kentcouncil
Jan 10 2006, 03:38 PM

Dol will love you for that.

It's not only great minds that think alike....
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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***musical princess***
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 10 2006, 08:43 PM
kentcouncil
Jan 10 2006, 03:38 PM

Dol will love you for that.

It's not only great minds that think alike....

What's the saying...?

Great minds think alike but fools rarely differ... :wink:

x
x Caroline x
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Nunatax
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LWpianistin
Jan 9 2006, 10:38 PM
have you ever witnessed a kill or at least been to a Hunt meet?

unfortunately there are many hunters out there with the ideals of a disgusting kill and nothing more. most hunters aren't like that, and hate those that are because they are the stereotype, which is not right. also, foxes aren't eaten alive. sure, the kill might be messy, but it's a lot less painful than a slow death caused by poison or poor shooting. can you imagine being shot in the stomach, having it get infected, and dying a week or so later of starvation and infection? or having a leg shot off and starving to death because you are unable to eat? sounds a lot worse than being quickly "torn apart" by about 5 hounds.

Shot to death (instantly or not) or being ripped to shreds by dogs. It doesn't matter. It shouldn't be happening. I'll never understand people who take part in the killing of animals just for fun.
You seem somewhat familiar. Have I threatened you before?
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phykell
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Nunatax
Jan 10 2006, 08:50 PM
LWpianistin
Jan 9 2006, 10:38 PM
have you ever witnessed a kill or at least been to a Hunt meet?

unfortunately there are many hunters out there with the ideals of a disgusting kill and nothing more. most hunters aren't like that, and hate those that are because they are the stereotype, which is not right. also, foxes aren't eaten alive. sure, the kill might be messy, but it's a lot less painful than a slow death caused by poison or poor shooting. can you imagine being shot in the stomach, having it get infected, and dying a week or so later of starvation and infection? or having a leg shot off and starving to death because you are unable to eat? sounds a lot worse than being quickly "torn apart" by about 5 hounds.

Shot to death (instantly or not) or being ripped to shreds by dogs. It doesn't matter. It shouldn't be happening. I'll never understand people who take part in the killing of animals just for fun.

Exactly!
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Jolly
Jan 10 2006, 11:51 AM
Whereas foxes will knock down the quail and rabbit population, and eat some chickens, coyotes will cleanse the area of small game, eat any livestock they can drag down, kill the family farm dog, tear up your watermelon patch, and scatter your trashcan about the place.


The worst, is when they leave all those discarded ACME rockets propelled roller skates and giant springs laying around.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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phykell
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Senior Carp
Hurry up LWpianistin!

When a man wantonly destroys one of the works of man we call him a vandal. When he destroys one of the works of god we call him a sportsman. - Joseph Wood Krutch
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
vacation's over...back to school :(

as far as the hunting debate goes, i am a great supporter of hunting with hounds as long as it serves a purpose. around the Ludlow area (the Ludlow Hunt being the one I follow) it does, as many farmers do lose money to foxes. in other areas of the UK it serves no purpose at all, except to kill purely for pleasure, and it should be banned in those types of areas.

i can see that i am the only person supporting hunting (as it is done in the UK) in this thread, and so i will gracefully back down, as i respecy everyone's opinions. i feel that a lot of people who posted here think i am one of those arrogant upper-middle class people and that i have no idea what i'm talking about and am only there for the "tea parties", etc. all i can say is that you are wrong. i was out there for a purpose other than killing for fun.

John D'Oh, the person you were lodging with was a poor representative of the hunting community, and there are many Hunts that consist of wealthy people there for the "tradion" etc (like the Beaufort Hunt, as an extreme example), but you cannot tell me that all Hunts are like that and only hunt on Tuesdays and Thursdays during the days. those that do are pointless and should be shut down. I was there at 4:30 Saturday mornings preparing hounds for hunts. i cleaned out their sh!t, fed them, watered them, exercised them, hauled buckets of water for horses, etc. so don't tell me what hunts do and represent.

Aqua, yes there is socialising before and after the hunt, but at 11am the field works as a team with good intentions to help the farmers of the Ludlow area. would you want to go out and work on an empty stomach on a cold winter's day? i can only speak on behalf of that area. i will not pretend that every Hunt is as good and purposeful, because they're not. i am fully aware of that. i guess i just followed one of the few hunts that helped the surrounding area, because that area DID suffer due to foxes.

Phykell, i am glad we agree about cubbing! how horrible!! i am sorry to say that the Ludlow Hunt participated in that sport :( it definitely serves no purpose at all. anyway, about the sabotuer stories i posted. i heard the barbed-wire-in-the-hedge one from my best friend who is like me and would not lie on behalf of hunting. she also believes in it only if it serves a genuine purpose. the wire one i heard on Radio One about 7 years ago in a news report. so, no, those are NOT just hearsay. I believe i mentioned those hunters that retaliate against protesters and called them idiots, if i remember correctly.

to all of you in general: i support hunting as long as it is like that in the Ludlow area. numbers and statistics are poor representatives of any activity. i suppose i support it because i lived in one of the few places where foxes really are a problem, and where people have NOT taken away from their habitat. it is a very rural part of Shropshire, which is a fairly rural county compared to others. i agree that drag hunting is a great alternative for those hunts that serve no purpose other than to uphold the tradtion of fox hunting. under the current laws, it is allowed, which is good as it doesn't affect the people and hounds as much as me and my friend thought it would. :smile: i never meant to change your views on the issue. when i have time and am not so tired i will find more info to support my stance, just so i can try to defend myself more properly. i feel that i am one of the few (unfortuneatly) hunt supporters that really know what i am talking about (in an un-arrogant way) due to experience alone. i fully respect your views. i can see that it IS barbaric at times. it's not exactly filled with kittens running through rainbow-covered meadows, but neither is butchering the meat that many of you eat.

on the same kind of topic (animal cruelity): egg-laying chickens are the most ill-treated animals on the earth. they are kept in wire pens so small they can't spead their wings and are killed as soon as they stop laying. i'm just saying that because i want to stress the fact that i am not a person who kills wildlife for fun. i only eat free-range eggs, and hardly eat meat unless i know my unle butchered it. i refuse to eat veal because of what it is and the treatment of the young calves. i am against animal testing and the hunting or killing of anything for "sport". when my family hunts we eat the meat and sell the hide. i respect nature and it's animals (more than many people i know), even insects. i hate killing bugs and spiders (even though i'm scared of spiders :hide: )

i hope that last (non-monster :silly: ) paragraph didn't seem arrogant or similar. i just can't stress enough that i respect animals, including foxes. they do help to clear out rodents and insects, and they are one of my favorite animals. i really don't think anyone can understand unless they live on a farm or similar place that is "in tune with nature", since those places are hard to find these days. i was lucky enough to live in areas like that in the UK and US, though. i fully understand and respect your opinions, never meant to change them, and still stand firmly by my own. as i have said before, if i don't respect others' opinions, how can i stand by my own and have a meaningful descussion?
And how are you today?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
"I can't stand them. I've shot them, caught 'em with #2 jump traps, poisoned them with antifreeze and hung them with piano wire snares. I don't enjoy killing, but I make an exception for coyotes. And bobcats... "


hanging with wire seems more than a little inhumane and unnecessary.... it's statements like that that give a poor representative of the farming community. i think most "city-folk" look at farmers in disgust as they belive they LOVE killing. actually, my uncle (a butcher, hunter, and farmer) is one of the most nature-friendly people i know. of course he kills animals, but he uses as much of the carass as he can, out of respect for the animal who gave him food. he only kills animals to eat and (in the case of the deer) to sell hides, rather than throw them away. if a hunter brings in a deer and says they don't want the meat, my uncle will butcher it and give it to the homeless shelter. it is the upper-class hunters of all types who kill fawns for trophies and waste the meat, bringing in the carcasses with so many bullet holes it is impossible to save the meat, just as it is those same hunters who fox hunt for pleasure and nothing else. those people make me sick, and anger me A LOT more than hunt sabotuers who try to injure fellow humans and animals.
And how are you today?
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The 89th Key
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Ok, to simplify things a bit...you said:

Quote:
 
i just can't stress enough that i respect animals, including foxes. they do help to clear out rodents and insects, and they are one of my favorite animals.


How can you support fox hunting then? I could show you some pictures here...but I think I'd get banned for it.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
if i haven't seen the pictures you're thinking of, i've probably seen them in real life. i respect all living creatures, but i also realise that hunting is necessary in some parts of the UK. as i also said, it is hard to understand that unless you have lived in these places. there are also a lot of places where hunting isn't necessary (About 95% of UK) and it should be banned there because it is pointless. i stand by my opinions. it is sometimes necessary to kill, but animals must always be respected. horses are my all-time favorite animal, and i hope to have one or two in my lifetime, but i have also carved meat off of a horse carcass and fed it to hounds because it had to be done. my best friend and her parents (after having it put down) gave one of their horses to the Hunt kennel to feed to hounds because Tinkie was no longer able to be ridden or bred and could not walk properly. my friend's family fealt that Tinkie's body could be used to nourish another being and chose to do that rather than have her cremated. it's kind of like the "circle of life" thing.

you might frown upon that, or just find it downright wrong, but what about Asians eating dogs and cats? ethnocentrism is the problem, and until you have been in a given culture, you really have no idea about it at all. i know it makes no sense to you for me to say that yes, i love and respect foxes but i also agree with hunting (for the most part), just as i love horses but have literally fed them to the hounds even though i find it difficult to do so. do you respect the chicken that gave you it's leg to eat? do you think about it? how about the battery hen that can't move, but gave you an egg to eat? or the sow that birthed that bacon you eat, pinned against a metal railing, not able to walk? how about the crabs and lobsters that are bioled alive for human consumption? i do. i acknowledge every creature that gave up its life for me to eat. i am aware of their suffering and pain. sounds corny etc and you might not believe me, but i do think about it. it's my way of life, and i don't care what other people have to say against it, as they will never understand it.

post your grotesque pictures if you want, but i am sure i have seen worse, unfortuneatly
And how are you today?
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The 89th Key
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You probably just set the record for the number of straw-man arguments in one post.

It's really quiet simple. You respect foxes, yet you support foxhunting. You do realize there are FAR better techniques out there to "control" a fox population than chasing them with dozens of dogs along with men on horseback, after having their breakfast and coffee before hand....right?

Foxhunting is pointless, unnecessary, cruel, and unwarranted. Your arguments so far have done nothing to support any rationale for foxhunting.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
straw-man arguements? i don't know what that means. could you elighten me?

i told you you wouldn't understand my reasoning, and i said i don't care. you believe what you what, and i'll do the same. as i said, it IS necessary in the area surrounding the Ludlow Hunt, and you cannot tell me that it isn't as you have never been there. i also said in about 95% of the UK it isn't necessary and should therefore be banned to satisfy the majority of the public. also, do you think that people who kill foxes in other ways don't have breakfast and coffee? what kind of arguement is that? and, yes, there are a lot of other ways to control foxes, but i don't think hanging them with wire is more humane, or trapping, or shooting. and poisoning - any animal that eats the poison could die, including family pets.
And how are you today?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
and 89th, you have just said it is unnecessary and pointless the entire time. that doesn't exactly give any rationale for your side of the arguement. Phykell has supported his arguements a lot. if you want, i will find written info and statistics to go with my arguement, but i find them useless.
And how are you today?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Luke's Dad
Jan 10 2006, 02:29 PM
Jolly
Jan 10 2006, 11:51 AM
Whereas foxes will knock down the quail and rabbit population, and eat some chickens, coyotes will cleanse the area of small game, eat any livestock they can drag down, kill the family farm dog, tear up your watermelon patch, and scatter your trashcan about the place.


The worst, is when they leave all those discarded ACME rockets propelled roller skates and giant springs laying around.

:lol2: :lol2:
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
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straw-man arguements? i don't know what that means. could you elighten me?


It's when you misrepresent the person you are arguing with and then attack that misrepresentation.

I'm not sure i agree with you, but i don't think you're guilty of applying the straw man fallacy.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
oooooohhhhhhh. well, then i apologise 89th, although i still stand by what i said.
And how are you today?
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phykell
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LWpianistin
Jan 15 2006, 03:09 AM

as far as the hunting debate goes, i am a great supporter of hunting with hounds as long as it serves a purpose. around the Ludlow area (the Ludlow Hunt being the one I follow) it does, as many farmers do lose money to foxes. in other areas of the UK it serves no purpose at all, except to kill purely for pleasure, and it should be banned in those types of areas.

It's been shown time and time again that it serves no purpose as it has a negligible effect on the fox population. It is an extraordinarily inefficient method of culling foxes, so much so that certain hunts felt it necessary to actually help foxes to breed, just so they'd have plenty to hunt!

LWpianistin
Jan 15 2006, 03:09 AM
i can see that i am the only person supporting hunting (as it is done in the UK) in this thread, and so i will gracefully back down, as i respecy everyone's opinions. i feel that a lot of people who posted here think i am one of those arrogant upper-middle class people and that i have no idea what i'm talking about and am only there for the "tea parties", etc. all i can say is that you are wrong. i was out there for a purpose other than killing for fun.

First of all you said that you love debating about fox-hunting, so let's have it :) Second, I'm afraid any purpose you think you may have served was a false one borne out of the ignorance that the Countryside Alliance feels it must help perpetuate.

LWpianistin
Jan 15 2006, 03:09 AM
i cleaned out their sh!t, fed them, watered them, exercised them, hauled buckets of water for horses, etc. so don't tell me what hunts do and represent. 

I'll tell you what they represent, a ridiculously hackneyed, out-of-date, cruel and pointless bloodsport, a reminder of other sick, sadistic sports such as bear-baiting, dog fighting, etc. There is absolutely no difference because they are all ultimately about entertaining humans at the expense of horrific suffering of defenceless creatures.

LWpianistin
Jan 15 2006, 03:09 AM
i will not pretend that every Hunt is as good and purposeful, because they're not. i am fully aware of that. i guess i just followed one of the few hunts that helped the surrounding area, because that area DID suffer due to foxes.

I'm sorry but you cannot make such claims. Hunting is *not* an effective method of population control for the fox. How could it be? It can takes hours just to get the scent of a fox for the hounds, chase it down and even then the hunt is, more often than not, unsuccessful. There is no way anyone in their right mind would think of a "hunt" as serving the purpose you claim. If it were so, why would they bother breeding the hunt dogs for stamina rather than speed? I'll tell you why, so it will *extend* the hunt and give the riders more chance to keep up with the dogs. It is absolutely about entertainment and *not* about culling foxes effectively.

LWpianistin
Jan 15 2006, 03:09 AM
i heard the barbed-wire-in-the-hedge one from my best friend who is like me and would not lie on behalf of hunting. she also believes in it only if it serves a genuine purpose. the wire one i heard on Radio One about 7 years ago in a news report. so, no, those are NOT just hearsay. I believe i mentioned those hunters that retaliate against protesters and called them idiots, if i remember correctly.

As many examples as you can give I can give ten times as many. I can show you links between far right groups and the Countryside Alliance. I can show you examples of what the hunt and their supporters have done to peaceful protestors and law-abiding hunt sabs. I can give you examples of the kind of abuse protestors routinely received, including having bottles of urine thrown at them, rocks, glass and so on, despite children being in the various groups. When the Police attend hunts, it is not about ensuring the protestors behave, it's about protecting the protestors from the thug element of the hunt supporters and their hangers-on.

LWpianistin
Jan 15 2006, 03:09 AM
i really don't think anyone can understand unless they live on a farm or similar place that is "in tune with nature", since those places are hard to find these days.

Your personal experience with the "Ludlow" hunt lends no weight to the nationwide argument that fox-hunting should be banned. As I said, hunting is not effective at what it attempts to do in terms of dealing with foxes as so-called "vermin" and as sentient creatures ourselves, able to empathise with other creatures that experience pain and fear, it's clearly inappropriate to claim that we should all adhere to your personal definition of what being "in tune" with nature means. I'm quite happy that I understand that hunting is all about a fox suffering for nothing more than the entertainment of humans. As far as most of the hunters are concerned, they have no consideration for the welfare of foxes, they just regard them as an object who doesn't deserve any more respect than the mud on their shoes. It's hardly surprising that amongst the most despicable human beings I have ever met are ones in red coats on horseback and their followers.

I respect others' opinions of course, I just expect that such opinions, when they concern the welfare of living creatures, should have some substance. I can show you evidence that shows that the dogs themselves are potentially more dangerous to livestock than the fox is - the dogs have been shown to spread disease amongst farmers' livestock due to the huge distance they travel, between farms and woodlands. As a direct result of the foot and mouth outbreak some years ago, hunting was immediately stopped due to the risk of spreading the disease. Incidentally, this wasn't at all helpful to the argument for fox hunting because, as if by magic, the fox numbers didn't suddenly increase dramatically. Farmers' livestock was suddenly depleted by foxes running amok. No, it just went to show that hunting with dogs has a negligible effect on the fox population, proved by the fact that a total ban on fox-hunting did not end up in we Brits being swamped by the hapless creatures!

When a man wantonly destroys one of the works of man we call him a vandal. When he destroys one of the works of god we call him a sportsman. ~Joseph Wood Krutch
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Remember, bones heal and chicks dig scars
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