| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Terrorist Training Camps, in Iraq?; Ties to Al-Quada? No....Can't be true | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 6 2006, 05:06 PM (226 Views) | |
| George K | Jan 6 2006, 05:06 PM Post #1 |
|
Finally
|
Because Bush Lied! (tm) http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...06/550kmbzd.asp Saddam's Terror Training Camps What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public. by Stephen F. Hayes 01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17 THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials. The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak--and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing. The photographs and documents on Iraqi training camps come from a collection of some 2 million "exploitable items" captured in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan. They include handwritten notes, typed documents, audiotapes, videotapes, compact discs, floppy discs, and computer hard drives. Taken together, this collection could give U.S. intelligence officials and policymakers an inside look at the activities of the former Iraqi regime in the months and years before the Iraq War. The discovery of the information on jihadist training camps in Iraq would seem to have two major consequences: It exposes the flawed assumptions of the experts and U.S. intelligence officials who told us for years that a secularist like Saddam Hussein would never work with Islamic radicals, any more than such jihadists would work with an infidel like the Iraqi dictator. It also reminds us that valuable information remains buried in the mountain of documents recovered in Afghanistan and Iraq over the past four years. |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Jan 6 2006, 05:18 PM Post #2 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
This simply can't be. Both Rick Zimmer and Quirt personally assured me that there were no links between Saddam and Al Qaeda.
|
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Jan 6 2006, 05:22 PM Post #3 |
|
MAMIL
|
Well, also: 'It exposes the flawed assumptions of the experts and U.S. intelligence officials' Maybe the rest of us should stop listening to the US intelligence and just make wild guesses, let's face it we'd achieve about the same degree of accuracy. Bush appears to making his own wild guesses, because sometimes he believes the intelligence services, and sometimes he doesn't. I wonder why. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Jan 6 2006, 05:48 PM Post #4 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
Believing the Weekly Standard's hyperbole about anything and everything in Iraq is about as useful as believing George Bush as to what is or was going on over there. Since Bush himself has now said there was no link, he either was lying then or he is lying now? Which do you think it is? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Jan 6 2006, 06:13 PM Post #5 |
|
Finally
|
Since you discount the Weekly Standard as being liars, I'll ask you to point out the inaccuracies in this article. Rick, that's the problem with the whole "Bush Lied" meme. Look at the statements, point out where Bush said that Iraq was connected to 9/11. Bush NEVER said that there was a link to Saddam and 9/11. He did say that Saddam supports international terrorism. Or should we tell Mrs. Klinghoffer something else? Can you say Abu Nidal? I thought you could..... And John:
And MI-5, and the French intelligence service, and the Russians, and..... Well, let's not believe ANYONE. |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Jan 6 2006, 06:20 PM Post #6 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
Since the allegations are made by the Weekly Standard, the burden of proof lies with them. And simply saying that 11 anonymous US government officials have confirmed this is hardly worthy validation. Perhaps all of these officials were postal workers. The Weekly Standard is to objective analysis what pornography is to literature. Is there any publication more closely tied to the PNAC goals than this one? If you are going to give us something worth considering as valid, please don't use the Weekly Standard. Sheesh! |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Jan 6 2006, 06:24 PM Post #7 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
We'll all take your word for that as the expert on both, Rick.
|
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Jan 6 2006, 06:27 PM Post #8 |
|
Finally
|
I'll ask you to point out the inaccuracies in this article. (again)
Yet you accept anonymous government workers who exposed the covert NSA surveillance program. You dismiss the content because you don't like the vehicle in which it is transmitted. I understand.... Completely. |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Jan 6 2006, 07:26 PM Post #9 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
You don't understand, George. There is nothing here that validates the accuracy of what is being said. The burden falls on the publication to prove the "facts" they are citing. They are making the argument, not me. They want us to believe their entire argument because of some sort of validation by eleven people somehow connected with the Federal government -- perhaps they are data processing clerks with the Department of Housing and Urban Development? We are not told who these people are. We do not know what information or data they were shown and we do not know what they actually said. All we have is a propoganda writer in a publication with a decidedly pro-Iraq War agenda implying that these people have agreed with all that he purports in his article. If you have such faith in the Weekly Standard, that's fine. I find them to be nothing more than a propoganda tabloid which does not deserve credibility. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Jan 6 2006, 07:31 PM Post #10 |
|
MAMIL
|
My point was, if the intelligence services are getting things so wrong so much of the time: a) Saying that Bush is lying unfair b) Saying that Democrats are lying is unfair c) The intelligence services aren't very intelligent, and aren't providing much of a service. I should also have pointed out d) This article isn't exactly conclusive proof. Some right-wingnut journalist makes all these claims, big deal! I might as well read Truthout. Saying un-named government sources is the same as saying 'God told me to do it'. Without evidence, I don't believe ANYONE. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Jan 6 2006, 08:46 PM Post #11 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Actually Rick, both Gryphon and I have on numerous occasions over the last few years posted pictures of the training camps, including pictures of the damned airliner they used to train terrorists to hijack jetliners. You dismissed that just the same way you dismiss this. I think it's pretty clear that the biased and poor information on the matter is coming from you. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Jan 6 2006, 08:57 PM Post #12 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
Actually, Larry, I am just taking the word of that valiant leader who has led us smack dab into the middle of a civil war in Iraq....George W. Bush. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Jan 6 2006, 09:21 PM Post #13 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Actually Rick, you're not. You're doing what you always do - twisting the facts to suit your needs and dodging. But I do now have a little better understanding of how you can be so totally clueless. I understand you're a professor of some sort? |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Jan 6 2006, 09:43 PM Post #14 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
This is old news. Everyone knows Saddam was supporting terrorist organizations don't they? Or do the need a building or two to fall on them. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Jan 7 2006, 01:39 AM Post #15 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
I think it is valid to question whether or not the article is true, although I believe it is. We can all make up our own minds on that. The huge difference between this article and the op ed pieces regularly posted by Rick and KathyK is that it states a simple fact as opposed to interpreting the meaning of events to suit one's view. |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Jan 7 2006, 03:25 AM Post #16 |
|
MAMIL
|
If the article is true, why are the government sources anonymous? If the administration has proof of these camps, why on earth wouldn't it release the information officially? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| lb1 | Jan 7 2006, 03:40 AM Post #17 |
![]()
Fulla-Carp
|
No crap, Rick is a professor? After reading some of his blathering, I figured he was some 18 year old freshman political science major. So he doesn't live in a dorm, and quirt isn't his roommate? :wacko: lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Jan 13 2006, 06:48 AM Post #18 |
|
Finally
|
Today the Wall Street Journal Opines: Saddam's Documents What they tell us could save American lives today. Friday, January 13, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST It is almost an article of religious faith among opponents of the Iraq War that Iraq became a terrorist destination only after the U.S. toppled Saddam Hussein. But what if that's false, and documents from Saddam's own regime show that his government trained thousands of Islamic terrorists at camps inside Iraq before the war? Sounds like news to us, and that's exactly what is reported this week by Stephen Hayes in The Weekly Standard magazine. Yet the rest of the press has ignored the story, and for that matter the Bush Administration has also been dumb. The explanation for the latter may be that Mr. Hayes also scores the Administration for failing to do more to translate and analyze the trove of documents it's collected from the Saddam era. Mr. Hayes reports that, from 1999 through 2002, "elite Iraqi military units" trained roughly 8,000 terrorists at three different camps--in Samarra and Ramadi in the Sunni Triangle, as well as at Salman Pak, where American forces in 2003 found the fuselage of an aircraft that might have been used for training. Many of the trainees were drawn from North African terror groups with close ties to al Qaeda, including Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Mr. Hayes writes that he had no fewer than 11 corroborating sources, and yesterday he told us he'd added several more since publication. All of this is of more than historical interest, since Americans are still dying in Iraq at the hands of an enemy it behooves us to understand. If Saddam did train terrorists in Iraq before the war, then many of them must still be fighting there and the current "insurgency" can hardly be called a popular uprising rooted in Sunni nationalism. Instead, it is a revanchist operation led by Saddam's apparat and those they trained to use terror to achieve their political goals. This means in turn that much of the Sunni population might be willing to participate in Free Iraq's politics but is intimidated from doing so by these Saddamists. The recent spurt of suicide bombings, aimed at Iraqi civilians and police trainees, looks like an attempt to revive such intimidation after the successful election. These Saddamists can't be coaxed into surrender by political blandishments because their goal isn't to share power but is to dominate Iraq once again. Or if they do play in the political process, it will only be in the Sinn Fein sense of doing so as cover for their real terror strategy. In any case, it is passing strange that the Bush Administration has been so uninterested in translating, and assessing, the information in the two million documents, audio and videotapes and computer hard drives it has collected in Iraq. Mr. Hayes reports that only 50,000 of these "exploitable items" have been examined so far, and those by a skeleton crew with few resources. Does anyone think, had there been a Nazi insurgency after Hitler fell, that the U.S. wouldn't have scoured everything found in Berlin? Why the dereliction this time? A benign explanation is that the first Bush priority was searching Saddam's files for WMD, not terror ties. But the WMD work has been done since the Duelfer report was substantially wrapped up well over a year ago. The current threat to U.S. soldiers in Iraq is from terror attacks, not WMD. Anything the U.S. can discover about whether and how Saddam and his coterie planned a guerrilla war before the invasion could be invaluable in defeating this enemy. In his new memoir about his year in Iraq, L. Paul Bremer reports that in July of 2003 he was told about a captured document from Saddam's intelligence service (dated January 2003) outlining a "strategy of organized resistance" if the regime fell. About the same time, pamphlets began circulating in Baghdad describing the "Party of Return," with vows to kill Iraqis who worked with the Coalition. We also know that documents discovered with Saddam in his rabbit hole in late 2003 included a claim that the insurgents would know they had won when a U.S. Presidential candidate called for withdrawing American troops from Iraq. These are signs of a disciplined political party, not some broad Algerian-like nationalism. A less benign explanation for the Bush Administration's lethargy is that its officials don't want to challenge the prewar CIA orthodoxy that the "secular" Saddam would never cavort with "religious" al Qaeda. They've seen what happened to others--"Scooter" Libby, Douglas Feith, John Bolton--who dared to question CIA analyses. Mr. Hayes reports that the Pentagon intelligence chief, Stephen Cambone, has been a particular obstacle to energetic document inspection. But if we've learned nothing else about U.S. intelligence in the last four years, it is that its "consensus" views are often wrong. The 9/11 Commission has confirmed extensive communication between Saddam's regime and al Qaeda over the years, including sanctuary for the current insurgent leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. We have also learned that in the years leading up to his ouster Saddam had implemented a "faith campaign" to use fundamentalist Islam as a tool of internal control. Especially if U.S. troops are going to remain to help the new Iraq government defeat the terrorists, we should want to know everything we can about them. And the American people should know too. For three years now, opponents of the war in Congress and the bureaucracy have cherry-picked intelligence details and leaked them to influence public opinion. The Bush Administration until recently has been remarkably reluctant to fight back. Telling truths about Saddam that are revealed by his own documents is part of that fight. |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Jan 13 2006, 07:11 AM Post #19 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
There are a whole lot of ifs in that article, but I do agree with the last paragraph. |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Jan 13 2006, 09:44 AM Post #20 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
Or perhaps Steven Hayes and the Weekly Standard are spinning this in a way the mainstream media, the White House, and those who support the war know will not stand up under close scrutiny or are spinning what they have to make it more important and to mean more than it deserves. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| maple | Jan 13 2006, 09:46 AM Post #21 |
|
Junior Carp
|
not sure what the big surprise would be. Iraq had assistance programs (including military training) for various militant/resistance movements from across the Arab/Islamic world. That at some point they would xtended/sold that training to jihadists is entirely possible, I would say likely. U.S. at some point trained Ossama Bin-Laden. So strange associations are nothing new. As for ""strategy of organized resistance" if the regime fell", that it existed should not be surprising either. These thing existed in all East-European countries, and they doubtless transfered that ideea to the Socialist/Baathist regime. Problem is that plans are one thing, and their execution after the regime fails is another. Are the resources that were prepared/pre-positioned according to plan used now? Sure. Are the users of those resources all trying to get the Baathist regime back? I would say not likely. Some are, some are not. Leaking intelligence details is a good way of controlling the parties using the leak. Intelligence services do it all the time, "leaking" to all sides of a fight. |
![]() |
|
| George K | Jan 16 2006, 10:00 AM Post #22 |
|
Finally
|
Here's some more spinning. From when He Who Cannot Hurt Me Anymore was president: Listen to this ABC News report from Jan. 1999 http://www.radioamerica.org/audio/MR_ABC-O...connections.mp3 Saddam link to Bin Laden Feb. 1999 http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...,314700,00.html Saddam link to Bin Laden (2nd story) Feb. 1999 http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,...,798270,00.html CNN News Feb. 1999 Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against the Western powers. http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9902/13/afghan.binladen/ Iraq Tempts Bin Laden To Attack West Dec. 1999 The world's most wanted man, Osama bin Laden, has been offered sanctuary in Iraq if his worldwide terrorist network succeeds in carrying out a campaign of high-profile attacks on the West over the next few weeks. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/527008/posts I know, the last one is pornographic. |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |










10:55 AM Jul 11